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Microsoft Software

Microsoft to Open up Office Formats 451

Been on TV writes to tell us that Microsoft is expected to announce on Tuesday the opening of their Office file formats, according to Financial Times. From the article: "Microsoft will submit its Office file formats to Ecma International, the standards body, which will develop the documentation and make it available to the industry. The move is being supported by a number of organizations including Apple Computer, Barclays Capital, BP, Intel and Toshiba."
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Microsoft to Open up Office Formats

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  • Hold on... (Score:3, Funny)

    by jurv!s ( 688306 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:04PM (#14085969) Journal
    this could change everything!!
    • Re:Hold on... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by lightyear4 ( 852813 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:15PM (#14086092)
      It certainly could change everything - or at least get the ball rolling. These latest developments stem from pressure exerted upon Microsoft from the open source community (and all of the open standards that come along with it) and, more importantly, from its success. Ultimately, we'll see software and computing industry shift into a business model based on service alone. This way, competition is no longer a race to market the latest and greatest features -- it becomes a competition based upon who best serves the customer. (Think RedHat and its booming support-based business). Governments, businesses, and private citizens will all benefit from this approach.
      • by AHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:25PM (#14086176) Homepage
        ... Ultimately, we'll see software and computing industry shift into a business model based on service alone. This way, competition is no longer a race to market the latest and greatest features -- it becomes a competition based upon who best serves the customer ...

        Thank you for restating the theory and hope behind OSS, now for reality ...

        MS had previously published Word and Excel formats. They did so as they took over the market, as they destroyed the competition. The competitions support for Word and Excel formats further reinforced those proprams as the defacto standards.
        • by morganew ( 194299 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:47PM (#14086382)
          There's also a larger problem with this approach - it sucks for small companies trying to become bigger.

          If you are only able to profit off of service contracts, you can't 'write once, reach many' like you can with COTS software. Moreover, companies like IBM and Novell which have large established sales and service teams will win all the larger contracts.

          If you write a great peice of software, and then have to sell, educate the customer AND hire/train all the workforce, how much time are you going to have to devote to Rev. 2 of your world beating product?

          Whenever folks talk about OSS in the context of markets, I think it should be with a jaundiced eye towards our "helpmates" at IBM, Novell, SAP/MySQL and Sun.

          Ultimately, IBM et al are about making money for shareholders, if they didn't see that as the likley outcome, they would not be out there pimping OSS.

          I think a world where software is only 'sold' in the context of a service contract is bad for the next great idea. OSS is great in its place, but to preclude software for sale isn't the answer.
          • The only software that implements OpenDocument right now happens to be FOSS, but it doesn't have to be: Microsoft, Apppe or anyone else can implement the format without having to publish their source code under the GPL or give it away freely.

            This is all about interoperability. Software vendors can still sell licenses, but they will have to give people a good reason to buy them (and not just Microsoft locking people in to its proprietary file formats). OpenDocument will probably be good for software companie
      • Re:Hold on... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Ravatar ( 891374 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:34PM (#14086269)
        That's a pretty mislead statement.

        Microsoft is opening their file formats because interoperability is king, open-source or closed.
        • Re:Hold on... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by joe user jr ( 230757 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @07:55PM (#14086903)
          It's kind of misleading. The pressure on m$ is coming from the fact that many government departments are waking up to the fact that it's absolutely insane to "own" millions of vital files which are written in a format where they can't produce software to access the contents themselves in the way that they choose. In a quite real sense, they are only by-proxy "owners" of such data (the proxy being the m$ programs in question, of course).

          However, they wouldn't be waking up to this were there not a healthy looking and viable alternative in the form of OpenOffice, which, as well as delivering true ownership of the files, also provides (most of) the convenience, bells and whistles of the m$ software stable. So in that sense, open source is a driver of this pressure.

          That's why I think the half-assed, quasi-open strategies discussed in some posts here do not present a real long-term option for m$ - once people are fully awake to the fact they don't really own their own data, only real open formats will solve m$'s marketing problem, and we'll see a real shift in the file-format landscape, of which this latest thing may be an early sign.

        • by msauve ( 701917 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @08:28PM (#14087124)
          from Microsoft, albeit in a slightly different order.

          Microsoft has historically "embraced" open industry standards by adding proprietary extensions, making its user's data worthless outside of the MS world.

          In this case, I suspect they'll end up releasing, but still maintaining control over the office formats. If not there already, they'll make sure there's the ability to store proprietary objects (or meta-data, or whatever the current popular nomenclature is) in the now "open" format. They'll then simply move on to placing more and more document content in these proprietary closed objects, while claiming they're using an "open format."

        • Re:Hold on... (Score:5, Interesting)

          by SeventyBang ( 858415 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @09:36PM (#14087488)


          They're opening their file formats because they still has a trump card [slashdot.org]. Or has anyone forgotten about this?

          A quick patch or two to Microsoft Office (now one of their biggest or the biggest ca$h cow - 1/3 of their profits?) and MS Office suddenly reads|writes XML format only. They aren't about castrating themselves voluntarily. They still have shareholders to keep happy, but more importantly, they want to be the trendsetters, no matter what.

          How does this impact Open Office? Open Office can then read the XML Format because it's declared in the patent. But what O^2 won't be able to do is write the MS Office XML Format [except to violate the patent]. This means: no interoperability and any business which wants to migrate away from a closed system (MS Office) to Open Office can do so only as a one-way trip, burning the bridge behind them. And the company can't communicate both directions, so that forces a move en masse.


      • Models... (Score:3, Insightful)

        by shmlco ( 594907 )
        "Ultimately, we'll see software and computing industry shift into a business model based on service alone."

        Interesting prognostication, but I totally fail to see how this "shift" follows from the opening of the document formats. Not all software is best done by a bunch of hackers working in their spare time, as just a casual look around SourceForge will demonstrate. With such a huge number of failed and abandoned projects, and only a relatively few high-profile success stories (LAMP), I don't believe the

        • Re:Models... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Nate B. ( 2907 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @09:07PM (#14087342) Homepage Journal
          I can appreciate the count of "failed" and abandoned projects on SourceForge. By and large, they can be resurrected by anyone willing to do so. The open source world is not unique in this respect as there are probably thousands of shareware and freeware (not to mention commercial) programs that have been adandoned just since Win32 hit the street, not to mention since DOS hit the street. The critical difference is that in the majority of cases when a shareware or small commercial developer closes shop, the users are left with little recourse for further support.

          At least F/OS Software is never truly dead. It may enter a state of dormancy or being a zombie, but it can always be brought back to life by anyone interested in doing so.

    • Re: Hold on... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Dolda2000 ( 759023 ) <fredrik.dolda2000@com> on Monday November 21, 2005 @07:55PM (#14086906) Homepage
      That really depends. The questions is: Is it the current, binary MSO file formats that they will standardize and publish? If so, it might indeed change a lot of things. However, if it's just the new XML-based formats for the next version of Office that they will submit to the ECMA, it changes very little from the current situation, since they've already committed to making them open. I read TFA very briefly, and I couldn't find a mention of which file format it is referring to.

      All in all, it's probably just a ploy to soften up Massachusetts, claiming that their formats is as "open" as OpenDoc, while probably requiring license fees, or make alternative implementations very hard in one or another way.

  • Licensing (Score:4, Insightful)

    by queenb**ch ( 446380 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:04PM (#14085972) Homepage Journal
    And how much of your soul will you have to sign away in order to use this?

    2 cents,

    Queen B
    • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:07PM (#14086008) Homepage
      And how much of your soul will you have to sign away in order to use this?

      2 cents,


      I hear 2 cents of a soul. Do I hear five cents? Three cents? It's not much to look at anyway, is it? Going once, going twice...
    • Re:Licensing (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Total_Wimp ( 564548 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:13PM (#14086069)
      And:

      -Will they allow changes in the standard after submission?
      -Will they use those changed standards in their own products?
      -Will they not release new formats until approved by the standards board?

      One of the problems with OO.o, and a lot of other software that clones existing document formats, is that they're always late to the game. If Microsoft released Office 12 today with a new document format that no one has seen, even if it was immediately released to the standards body it would be months or years until an open source product could be released that would duplicate the format. As long as Microsoft leads, everyone else has no choice but to follow.

      TW
      • Re:Licensing (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Captain Perspicuous ( 899892 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @07:10PM (#14086563)
        I think you nailed the central problem: Unless MS also outlines an open process how new features are implemented to these Office Formats, they will still be perceived as "closed" because the world of office users will keep looking towards Microsoft for "guidance to the future" instead of looking towards a standard comittee for future changes.
    • Re:Licensing (Score:3, Informative)

      by Swamii ( 594522 )
      According to this post [msdn.com] by a Microsoft employee, the format is free to use. In his next post [msdn.com], Brian points out that the license is perpetual; that is, it cannot be changed once granted. He cites the license itself [microsoft.com], which says, that the license is perpetual for everyone, and is only terminable if the individual sues Microsoft over patent infringement claims relating to reading or writing of Office Schemas.
      • Re:Licensing (Score:5, Informative)

        by BasilBrush ( 643681 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:37PM (#14086293)
        Out of date. That refers to Microsoft's pseudo open format licensing. Specifically crafted to exclude GPLed software from legally using the formats. If this announcement tomorrow is supposed to mean that Massachusetts and the EU won't drop them, then it will have to drop the license terms that stop sub-licensing, such that GPL apps may use the formats. Anything less won't cut it.
      • Re:Licensing (Score:4, Insightful)

        by mormop ( 415983 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:51PM (#14086422)
        "the license is perpetual for everyone"

        But will support for it in MSOffice be perpetual? I mean support for existing office formats isn't guaranteed between one version and the next. The new format could be in MSOffice for long enough to capture the vast majority of Government and enterprise contracts before a free upgrade installs a new new format that imports the free one but only saves out to the new version.

        OK, so level criticism for an over cynical approach but if a car dealer sells me 10 piles of crap in a row it'd take more than a promise to be nice this time to convince me that that they've changed.
      • Re:Licensing (Score:4, Interesting)

        by jc42 ( 318812 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @07:05PM (#14086526) Homepage Journal
        [T]he format is free to use. In his next post, Brian points out that the license is perpetual; that is, it cannot be changed once granted.

        We've seen other such licenses that have turned out to be very misleading. For example, if I use the license and write software that implements the specs, can I legally sell my software? The fact that I have a license doesn't mean that I can pass the license on to others in my products.

        There are lots of potential legal gotchas in a lot of "free" licenses. Given MS's history, a bit of paranoia is in order here. We need people suggesting ways that they can turn around and sue us into bandruptcy if we use their specs. Then we need assurances that they won't sue us in any of those ways. And we need lawyers looking at the assurances and telling us whether they're legally meaningful, or whether we might get sued anyway.

        After all, consider the RIAA. Who'd have ever thought that someone could be sued for buying a recording, sticking it into their own sound equipment and playing the music? But that's happening these days. We've even just had a story of recordings that intentionally damage our playing equipment when we attempt to play the music.

        Paranoia here is quite appropriate.

      • by sjvn ( 11568 ) <sjvnNO@SPAMvna1.com> on Monday November 21, 2005 @07:38PM (#14086764) Homepage
        From the license:

        "Microsoft may have patents and/or patent applications that are necessary for you to license in order to make, sell, or distribute software programs that read or write files that comply with the Microsoft specifications for the Office Schemas."

        and that's why this has never been acceptable to the open-source community.

        Steven
    • Re:Licensing (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Nutria ( 679911 )
      And how much of your soul will you have to sign away in order to use this?

      The question then to ask is what the ECMA policy is on licensing standards.

      MSFT also submitted part of .NET to ECMA, and it didn't have any license fees attached to it, so that might be a good sign.
    • by Belseth ( 835595 )
      And how much of your soul will you have to sign away in order to use this?

      Just all the code your company has written, is writing, or ever will write. Not that much really.

    • Indeed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sterno ( 16320 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:36PM (#14086288) Homepage
      It will be interesting to see how "open" it really will be. The funny thing is I swear I've heard this before. Wasn't the big deal supposed to be how they were going to use XML and how this was going to allow them to place nicely with others?

      I get the sense that Microsoft may take a security through obscurity approach with this. Make it a pain in the butt for somebody else to implement. Then keep adding new stuff to it so that there's always subtle incompatibilities with older software. A "open" format is of minimal value if third parties have to struggle to keep up with the standard.
  • it's easier to hack them than read their docs.
  • Having an effect (Score:4, Insightful)

    by suso ( 153703 ) * on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:06PM (#14085988) Journal
    Call it what you want. But I imagine that open source definately has had a major effect on the industry over its lifetime. It has definately been worth all the effort. Despite what some may think.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:06PM (#14085991)
    ...It's a TRAP!
  • Hmm... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by lordmetroid ( 708723 )
    I wonder what kind of impact Microsoft hopes to achive by doing this. I would guess they belive that when more software can use their format they will create the standard. But the thing is, they allready do this sort of.

    I for one don't see how opening a file format so engaraved in society that it has become a standard for non-geeks can make an additiona revenue.
    • by tepples ( 727027 ) <.tepples. .at. .gmail.com.> on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:13PM (#14086072) Homepage Journal

      I wonder what kind of impact Microsoft hopes to achive by doing this.

      Fully documenting the Microsoft Office file formats and permissively licensing any essential patents could help dissuade governments from migrating to OASIS OpenDocument format, which happens to be the native format of a competing software package called OpenOffice.org 2.x.

    • They are not bound to keep to that standard--they could move away from it in some future release. Embrace and extend, even their own stuff.

      -b
    • My take (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dslauson ( 914147 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:19PM (#14086132) Journal
      My take on this is that they have caught a lot of flak for not supporting open document. This way, they don't have to make any changes, and they don't have to support open document, but they'll still be supporting a document format that is open.

      Now, many of the reasons for switching to open document will be nullified, and if Microsoft's doc becomes the standard, the burden will be on the OSS community to make changes to their software rather than the other way around.

      Basically, it's MS's way of waying, "You want openness? Fine, but if we're going to play, we're going to play with our ball."

      I think it would be awesome to see MS support an open standard. This seems like kind of a petty way to go about it, but that's the Microsoft we all love to hate, right?
  • by bhsx ( 458600 )
    Wow, we live in strange times. I just heard MS is offering free email hosting for your domains through live.com, and now this. MS may really begin a new corporate (for them) paradigm.
    • Re:Wow. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by qodfathr ( 255387 )
      I tried the free mail hosting with one of my rarely used domains. In the end, you end up with a Hotmail front-end -- you literally log into Hotmail (well, Passport actually), but rather than having a login id of 'john.smith@hotmail.com' you have 'john.smith@mydomainname.com' (you can use whatever user id format you like). Otherwise, it looks and feels like Hotmail -- including text advertisements at the bottom of any email you send. I assume the Outlook integration that Hotmail offers also works, but I d
  • Define "open up" (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Psionicist ( 561330 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:07PM (#14086000)
    So.. Will they really open everything, or just wrap their proprietary implementation inside XML and therefore claim their format is "open"?

    I hope they really open up the format. Otherwise it'd be as bad as RIAA promoting DRM "for freedom". Sigh.
    • by Chordonblue ( 585047 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:22PM (#14086152) Journal
      We'll have to see, but clearly MS is doing everything they can to avoid having to use the Open Document format. How they will continue to keep .DOC proprietary to some degree is a mystery to me...

    • by massysett ( 910130 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:55PM (#14086454) Homepage
      MS says it will go to ECMA first with the Office 12 XML format. They say that once Office 12 XML is recognized by ECMA, they will go to ISO. See News.com [com.com] story.
    • by EXTomar ( 78739 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @07:08PM (#14086550)
      They are fully and openly specifying how to write all of the Office formats. While this is good, it does nothing for the other important half which is reading. They clearly don't want all applications to perfectly files generated by some software. This tatic seems to guarentees that at least one product will "clean" as well as special Office formats: Office itself.

      I suppose people can take the information on how to write a valid "clean" Office format to make better format translators but we are still hosed for various random files that will be generated and only readible in sanctioned applications.
      • by Anonymous Coward
        Reading is the easy bit.
        It's far simpler to reverse engineer a file format to get the information you want out of it - and leave the stuff that's irrelevant.

        But trying to create a fragile binary file format full of stuff that's irrelevant to you, but required by other programs is very, very difficult. One bit wrong could create a document that causes other applications trying to read it to crash.
        • On The Contrary... (Score:4, Insightful)

          by EXTomar ( 78739 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @10:52PM (#14087777)
          If you believe reading is the easy bit then look at Html. As "specified" as W3 has made Html no two browsers render many pieces of data the same way.

          As I said before, it is interesting they are specifying how to write out proper Office Xml but it is somewhat meaningless for everyone but Office to understand how to read it properly. We can understand the heck out of how to write files and still end up with a lot of tinkering on how to read it in where two implementations interpt the format differently.
        • One bit wrong could create a document that causes other applications trying to read it to crash.

          Am I the only one thinking that if your app crashes because one bit in a file is wrong, then not only is the app badly written, but the bug is also probably exploitable to run arbitrary code (buffer overflow and all)? Of course, I get the original idea that if a small detail is wrong, the file may be considered invalid.
          • It has crossed my mind a couple times recently why we haven't seen buffer overflow attacks against word an excel.

            Many people know it crashes with large files, it can also probably be exploited as well.

            Even a two pronged attack of a word file with pretty girls and a small image with a buffer overflow attack. That in addition to another attack in the word formatting itself. Many will forward it because of the girls and have no idea that they are spreading a virus.

            Or even better, a web site that exploits IE,
    • Re:Define "open up" (Score:3, Interesting)

      by vsprintf ( 579676 )

      I hope they really open up the format.

      The format? Which one? Word 97, Word 2000, and Word 2003 document formats all have incompatibilities going both forward and backward. Apparently, every version has its own format. What about the next version of Word?

  • 18 months? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dada21 ( 163177 ) * <adam.dada@gmail.com> on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:08PM (#14086009) Homepage Journal

    It seems odd that it will take 18 months to develop documentation for the file formats. Sure, the formats must be complex, but it seems like maybe this documentation organization might not be a truly independent standards body.

    Ecma's wiki and site seems to be pretty much confirm that they're composed of manufacturer members. I wouldn't consider them the equivalent of ANSI or UL. 18 months of work by a collusive industry is more throwing those governments a bone than actually getting the work done right.

    I guess there should be some applause for getting the ball rolling. Uphill?
    • I can't speak for all Office formats, but Word is utter crap. I can certainly see a standards body taking 18 months to write documentation for these formats.
    • Re:18 months? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sribe ( 304414 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:23PM (#14086162)
      It seems odd that it will take 18 months to develop documentation for the file formats. Sure, the formats must be complex, but it seems like maybe this documentation organization might not be a truly independent standards body.

      It's worse than that. Like RTF, they will change the formats arbitrarily with every revision of office, and will then probably take 18 months to document each new version. And of course they will claim this is complete openness and interoperability, ignoring that they're keeping 3rd parties 18 months behind...
    • Re:18 months? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Bogtha ( 906264 )

      It seems odd that it will take 18 months to develop documentation for the file formats.

      It's not 18 months to develop documentation, it's 18 months to develop the standard. That's relatively quick. Bear in mind that whatever internal documentation Microsoft has may be relatively sparse, and will probably make a lot of assumptions about how things are handled that might not hold true for other implementations. It ends up being a lot of work to find all the little corner cases and assumptions which ar

    • Re:18 months? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by jc42 ( 318812 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:52PM (#14086430) Homepage Journal
      Ecma's wiki and site seems to be pretty much confirm that they're composed of manufacturer members. I wouldn't consider them the equivalent of ANSI or UL.

      A related point that I'm wondering about: When the standards specs are complete, how will I get them? Will they be online? Or will I have to pay and sign an NDA to get a copy?

      This isn't an idle distinction. I well remember, back in the 1980's, working on networking projects where we really wanted to get the OSI stuff up and running alongside IP, to compare them. A problem was that the OSI specs weren't online; they could only be ordered in print. By the time we got a purchase order approved, an order sent, and the docs delivered, we had long since downloaded the RFCs for the internet equivalent and implemented it all. And part of the problem was that we had to hand-type the stuff from the OSI specs, leading to lots of typos and extra time to spot the typing errors. The IP docs could be directly copied to the code without error. (And yes, I am one of those weirdos who writes perl scripts that read spec docs and spit out code. I've gotten all sorts of funny reactions from people when they first discover those entries in my makefiles. ;-)

      The end result was that our OSI code could never catch up with the IP code. It couldn't even come close, simply due to the delays in dealing with for-pay, on-paper specs when the competitor was instantly available online in machine-readable form.

      If we'd had to sign NDAs for the OSI stuff, we'd never have gotten anywhere. But then, I guess we really didn't anyway, because all that OSI code is now dead and forgotten.

      I can see ECMA using a similar approach to delay us "open source" geeks, so they can hold it semi-private while oh-so-innocently pretending to have opened it all. It'll likely be open in the same sense as the OSI specs, but maybe with NDAs. With MS's marketing clout, the effect won't be to eliminate those formats from the market. The main effect will be a big drag on developers' time, as they try to jump through all the hoops required to get something working.

      I do expect that 6 months from now, we'll be hearing a lot of "Hey, we opened the formats, but nobody else has implemented them. Our competitors must be intentionally ignoring them; or maybe they're just incompetent." No mention of the fact that the specs haven't been published yet. And, if computing history is any guide, that 18-month estimate means at least 3 years, probably more.

      This sort of thing isn't what you'd call a efficient. But I don't suppose anybody ever called software a rational market.

  • by samjam ( 256347 )
    From the customer line-up in the summary it looks like they had to listen to quite a few large customers.

    I wonder what gave those customers the confidence and leverage to convince Microsoft.

    Those who rate linux low must at least admit it keeps Microsoft honest.

    Sam
  • What about patents ? (Score:5, Informative)

    by sunya ( 101612 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:09PM (#14086022) Homepage
    It may be an ECMA standard, but it could still be patented. IIRC, the ECMA / patent issue affect Mono as well. From the Mono FAQ [mono-project.com] : "The core of the .NET Framework, and what has been patented by Microsoft falls under the ECMA/ISO submission"
  • Has openoffice really thrown Microsoft this far?

    If these files are opened - really opened, Microsoft will have to compete on the basis of quality, price and by innovation.

    The thing is, it's humble OSS programmers that have a tendency to think up new uses for things. They can develop quicker and launch quicker.

    If true, OpenOffice should quickly have perfect read write of MS files. The challenge now is to come up with more innovative features so that not only can OO read and write the files you need, but it w

  • by HateBreeder ( 656491 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:09PM (#14086025)
    See Internet Explorer/HTML...
    • Write not read (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dereference ( 875531 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:23PM (#14086161)
      You're right. But look, I think it's even worse than you suggest. Look at this gem FTFA:

      Within about 18 months, customers, competitors and developers should be able to download detailed files from Ecma on how to create a Microsoft Word, Powerpoint or Excel document.

      This is going expose only a way to write to these formats. It says absolutely nothing about how to read documents created by their proprietary packages. It's much easier to say "here's how to create a valid document" without giving away all of the keys to the kingdom than it is to explain fully "here's how to read any document created by our suite" (and you have to presume they'll intentionally leave out the good stuff).

      As far as I can tell, this is a no-op.

      • Re:Write not read (Score:3, Informative)

        by spitzak ( 4019 )
        Several idiots here have replied that writing is harder than reading.

        Why don't you try a *REAL* file format.

        TIFF is a good example.

        A program that writes a TIFF file can be about 100 lines (writes an arbitrary sized image in full 24 bit rgb or in 32 bit rgba).

        To read a TIFF file you need a library of tens of thousands of lines (libtiff).

        Why? Because in the TIFF header there is a "compression type" and a lot of other variables. If you are writing a TIFF file you only need to worry about one setting of these v
  • Somehow I expect Microsoft to enforce some sort of EULA for the formats, or perhaps patent the formats. I suspect that GNU software wanting to read/write the formats is somehow going to be left out in the cold. We are, after all, talking about Microsoft. Consider their "shared-source" initiative a while back.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:10PM (#14086031)
    Ogg Vorbis, Png, and Odt benefit everyone, even the people who have never used any of these three formats. Ogg Vorbis benefits everyone because it stops Thomson from taking any legal action against the free Lame mp3 encoder and XMMS mp3 playback library; Thomson knows that if they have their lawyers even look at the Lame web page [sourceforge.net], the entire Open Source community will perform a mass exodus to the Ogg format.

    The PNG format, in addition to being far superior to GIF, kept Unisys from taking too much legal action against GIF; the little legal action they took increased cross-browser PNG compatibility to the point that people can safely put non-transparent PNG images on their web pages today.

    Odt will benefit everyone because this format gives Microsoft a clear message to open up their .doc file format.
  • Assuming this is true (and that the format will be truly open, not just more marketing exageration), then this is good news. This is exactly what it should be like: competition leads to better products for consumers. Open-source software has forced MS to open up their format.

    Now, I admit a part of me is unhappy about this, because it means that many organizations will now just say "let's stick with MS Office" instead of fully making the switch to FOSS... however, at the end of the day, this also means that
    • If OpenOffice can flawlessly open and save in OpenDocument format AND the latest MS formats, then that whole "compatibility" reason for ignoring OpenOffice quickly disappears.

      Moreover, this means fewer and fewer people will be at a disadvantage -- governments and businesses will be able to successfully reach those who, previously, could not access important information simply because they could not open a file.
  • This is good. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Descalzo ( 898339 )
    Finally Microsoft will have to sell products based on the quality of the software instead of the customer being railroaded into keeping the ability to read their files in the future.

    I think Office is a fine product, but I always felt a little cheated that I couldn't read newer files on my older version.

  • Halt OpenDocument (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:12PM (#14086056)
    I would suspect that this move is in order to a) Halt Opendocument before it spreads too wide, thus bringing publicity to Microsofts stance, and b) secure a future for their Office product.
  • This seems like a great win for users everywhere in general and OSS in specific. The article is light on details - who exactly will have access to these open specs? How will licensing be applied? Is it patented - apparently you can patent everything these days.

    I'll wait to see ALOT more details before becoming giddy with excitement...
  • opendocument? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bsdluvr ( 932942 )
    Am I the only one who fears they will never implement OpenDocument support, but rather 'open' their proprietary formats?
  • Which license (Score:3, Insightful)

    by afidel ( 530433 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:14PM (#14086082)
    Will this be a RAND deal where you can get the specs under a restrictive license after paying a "reasonable" fee, or will it be a true, open standard. From the ECMA website it says

    To publish these Standards and Technical Reports in electronic and printed form; the publications can be freely copied by all interested parties without restrictions.

    But I'm not sure that all the standards they adopt have to be so free. For instance MS can open up the spec, but outside of europe they might still be able to restrict access to Open Source projects based on software patents they hold. I really hope this means free, but somehow I'm not holding my breath.

    P.S. There's also the issue that even Microsoft might not fully understand the Office file formats. I know that this is true with SMB, the Samba team members know more about the wire protocol then anyone currently working at MS.
  • And.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Eric Damron ( 553630 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:15PM (#14086095)
    Are they also going to drop the patent encumbrances and change the license so it can be used by open source including GPL'd works?
  • by NoMoreNicksLeft ( 516230 ) <john.oyler@noSpAm.comcast.net> on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:16PM (#14086107) Journal
    But just what are they opening? The new XML formats? Or the binary sludge formats?
  • First, it's getting Microsoft to admit (tacitly) that their "case" for Office in public institutions is weak, at best, and their arguments are just so much hot air.

    Second, they're giving up on at least some of the old "rules of the game." The file format has almost nothing to do with application functionality. Making the format proprietary serves little more than to justify the company lawyers' salaries.
  • This is the obvious Microsoft response to the threat of open source office suites and open document formats. We've already seen stories concerning Microsoft losing business because of closed document formats. The closed formats have been enough of a concern where municipalities and other organizations have said "We're not going to use Office anymore." If this trend were to continue, it would pose a significant threat to Microsoft's revenue, as a large portion comes from selling Office products. This is esse
  • by grasshoppa ( 657393 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:19PM (#14086128) Homepage
    Apple choosing Intel, Dell choosing AMD, MS openning up Office formats.

    Dogs and cats, living together! MASS HYSTERIA!
  • First Question (Score:4, Interesting)

    by RAMMS+EIN ( 578166 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:30PM (#14086224) Homepage Journal
    My first question, and likely that of many others, was: "Why are they doing this?"

    Well, according to TFA, it's because of the European Commission has been urging companies to open up their document formats, and Microsoft feared the EC would stop using Microsoft's formats for the creation of public documents, and urge national governments to do the same.

    So, thumbs up for the EU on this one!
  • License-free (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ececheira ( 86172 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:40PM (#14086314)
    According to one Microsoft guy, Microsoft is removing the royalty-free license requirment and instead is issuing an irrevocable commitment not to suethat says they won't ever sue you.

    http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/archive/2005/11/ 21/495466.aspx [msdn.com]

  • by jmorris42 ( 1458 ) * <jmorris@[ ]u.org ['bea' in gap]> on Monday November 21, 2005 @06:52PM (#14086434)
    Lets put this PR spin through the reality filter.

    1. Microsoft promising something 18 months down the road is meaningless. Hell, ANY tech company promising something 18 montsh out is meaningless.

    2. This announcement is for Europe, without software patents.... for now. Of course if in 18 months there just HAPPEN to be software patents and said patents are licensed under their no-GNU terms... oh well, who wants to support smelly hippies anyway.

    3. The only promised the ability to write, kida curious since most of the EU objections are about random folk being able to READ their government's output.

    4. There is no committment to continue using this 'standardized' format in any future product. So there is nothing to provent them from releasing a future Office that uses an 'embraced and extended' version and either not documenting the changes at all or another 18 months after it ships.
  • It won't matter. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ph33r th3 g(O)at ( 592622 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @07:11PM (#14086564)
    In 18 months, Vista will have shipped, most corporate desktops will be running it, and Office documents will be unreadable without the keys from the Microsoft Rights Management Server having been provided to the Fritz chip. The formats will be open, and it'll be a DMCA violation to read them.
  • by szo ( 7842 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @07:48PM (#14086851)
    Don't mind that little patent attached. Just look somewhere else. See, no bother!
  • by plazman30 ( 531348 ) on Monday November 21, 2005 @08:58PM (#14087294) Homepage
    You can bet that Microsoft has a strong business plan for this back in Redmond to show this helps crush OpenOffice somehow. It would not surprise me if Microsoft filed for a slew of patents in the next 18 months. Or perhaps they're going to open up the Office 12 file format, but the earlier binary file format that probably 95% of customers are using will remain lock away to be reverse engineered.

    That way when a government body wants to start using a "open" file format, Microsoft will happily sell them some software assurance program that gives them Office 12 at a good price, but locks them in for another 5 years or so.

    Trust me, there is a good business plan back in Redmond on the table showing how this is going to work best for Microsoft in the long run.

    The sad part is that, Microsoft owns the desktop for now. They could open source Office and Windows and they would STILL own the desktop.
  • by bwalzer ( 708512 ) <(slashdot) (at) (59.ca)> on Monday November 21, 2005 @09:23PM (#14087435)
    Let's say you are a dominant player in a particular industry. Let's also say that your continued dominance depends on control of some sort of proprietary interface. Things are not so bad if competitors try to reverse engineer your interface. You just change things enough from time to time to keep them at a disadvantage. That's all fine and proper but sometimes your customers will be bad. They might conspire with your competitors to lessen your control of your market by proposing some soft of open standard that you have no direct control over.

    Fortunately there is a fix available. What you do is start another open standard. Use your influence in the industry to promote this standard for all you are worth. Claim that you have seen the error of your ways. Get a bunch of pet suppliers and/or dominant players in related industries together and form a "Industry Association". Go to conferences. Give speeches. Actually support this new standard with your new products. Complete interoperability is just around the corner and you don't even have to switch suppliers if you don't want.

    Inevitably the momentum will swing towards your open standard. Timing is critical here. You have to anticipate. Just as it seems clear to everyone which way to go suddenly back off on your support of your open standard. If it seems like you were a bit late simply start supporting and promoting the other open standard. The key here is balance. Keep both standards relevant for as long as it takes.

    The effects on your customers will be grave. They will end up having to support 3 or more standards because they will still have a lot of the old stuff you made. Your customers deserve all this of course. They were disloyal. Eventually everyone will yearn for the old days of single source contracts. The open standards effort will eventually die on its own and the industry will have learned that open standards just don't work. There are just too many of them.

    Repeat as needed and remember that this isn't just for things like the computer industry. It works for more traditional businesses as well. Microsoft didn't invent this stuff. They are just good at applying it

  • If they start trying to support Open Document, it would be a huge pain for them, because they would have to adapt or change their document's structure and DOM, which would probably mean re-doing a good amount of their work on Office. So, instead, they just throw their "open" standard on the table and say "How about you support our format". All of this makes perfect sense in M$'s strategy because they still leverage their complete dominance in this market by forcing their competitors to re-build to their standards, instead of the other way around.

    It is very unlikely that M$ will ever release their format in a way that is truly "open" (i.e. usable in open source software). The simple reason is that Microsoft consider's their documents to be their intellectual property. They will always seek some sort of royalties or benefits because they consider them part of their company's assets. The healthy number of patents they apply for each week (what is it, like 30, right?) supports the fact that IP is an emerging part of their business model.

    The other downside to this whole thing is that M$ is the last company who should be defining implementations for the rest of the market. The protocols they define in house have always been a huge source of pain for anybody else trying to understand them. At times it almost seems like their protocol is simply defined by how the current version of their software decides to spit out bits. SMB is a good example, and there are probably others. This isn't even particularly bad behavior when you consider that these protocols/formats were never meant to work with anybody else's software; however, when M$ begins dictating that the rest of the world adopt their proprietary formats, you end up with a bunch of buggy software that works about 98% of the time. All the documentation in the world will never create a stable format which is well designed to work with a multitude of implementations. Sadly, this move will probably work well for M$, and we will end up with a situation similiar to SMB, except that it is even more difficult for business's to work around.
  • Haven't RTFA but if it only covers how to write a legal file then it likely does not include rendering (how to draw it on the screen / to a printer) nor how to read / write efficiently, either.

    It may well be that only MS Office 5.0 or whatever is opened. And let's not talk about Excel cells, or those line drawings in Word that never seem to come out right in OOo.

    Only if MS promises to now and forever provide immediately, online a fully open reference implementation and spec for all the formats used throughout Office, including the interfaces for embedding, publishing, accessing etc.. then can it be called open. Of course it will still be to their advantage even if they made a 100% total commitment to this, the question is only how little do they have to do to meet EU regulator approval. I have little faith in regulators, a bit more perhaps for Boston and other municipalities/countries that are requiring use of a non-MS open standard.

    The most useful thing for companies right now would be for MS to provide an open source tool that lets them read their tons of old word documents into a database. That isn't going to happen while MS is in a war with Google. And that's why it is only about writing files, and also why as long as Google aims at the desktop there will only be a bare minimum of the way Office really works being implemented.

    And how about a tool to convert heavily VB scripted tools into OOo or perl? No, these massive investments are the momentum that keeps the corporate world firmly in MS' pants. Not this decade.

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