C Programming Language Back At Number 1 535
derrida writes "After more than 4 years C is back at position number 1 in the TIOBE index. The scores for C have been pretty constant through the years, varying between the 15% and 20% market share for almost 10 years. So the main reason for C's number 1 position is not C's uprise, but the decline of its competitor Java. Java has a long-term downward trend. It is losing ground to other languages running on the JVM. An example of such a language is JavaFX, which is now approaching the top 20."
That's great and all... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Nah, that's the NULL position. That's where programming languages go to die.
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And signals raise from the dead.
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Python has strings. Java has strings. C# has strings.
C has functions that take a pointer and run until they find a \0.
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C'mon. Be serious.
I do 50% of my coding in C and since the time a hooded man told me "Use the snprintf(), Luke!" I never had a problem :D
TIOBE methodology is so flawed it's pointless (Score:5, Insightful)
Go ahead, read it for yourself [tiobe.com], and tell me how this is supposed to give any meaningful results. They aggregate together things of all kind, to the point where an aggregate doesn't make any sense at all (I mean, hits such as "programming in PHP sucks" or "you must be an idiot to write production code in VB" would count as +1 for PHP and VB, correspondingly!). You can have one language having many job postings, another having many books, and yet another having many basic "how to?" questions and dumbed-down tutorials, and they'd all get the same rating.
In any case, most certainly, at these numbers (Java 18.051%, C 18.058%), speaking of one overtaking another is completely pointless, given the margin of error.
Anyway, if you want to know how popular a particular language/technology is, the simplest - and much more accurate! - way of doing so is to check any popular job search web site. Just keep in mind that preferences vary in different regions, so if you are making career choices, stick to local/national postings, and if you want to see an overall worldwide trend, you have to aggregate data from enough sources.
Re:TIOBE methodology is so flawed it's pointless (Score:5, Insightful)
> I mean, hits such as "programming in PHP sucks" or
> "you must be an idiot to write production code in VB"
> would count as +1 for PHP and VB, correspondingly!
This is the true spirit of our times. Any publicity is good publicity.
Re:TIOBE methodology is so flawed it's pointless (Score:5, Funny)
> This is the true spirit of our times. Any publicity is good publicity.
People falsely accused of pedophilia would beg to differ.
Re:TIOBE methodology is so flawed it's pointless (Score:5, Funny)
Huh, I could've sworn Java was over 18 by now. Oops.
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Does that make C a cougar?
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No, they are more likely the abused.
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Why, are they Catholic?
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The use of ">" as a quote marker in email and Usenet news is at least 30 years old.
Displaying lines quoted with ">" in a color that differs from the rest of the message is at least 20 years old.
4chan and its "> Implying..." greentext has nothing on those traditions.
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This.
C has no this; this is a C++ and Java and JavaScript thing.
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bitch, BBS post replies were done like that...don't gimme that 4chan bullshit.
WWIV was written in C. Holler!
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Agree. The methodology is laughable.
I think searches that expect to see the word "Java" in content about Java may be falling because in a lot of contexts it's assumed you're talking about Java, it's not necessary to mention it. And if Java's being displaced by other JVM-based languages, why aren't they searching for Scala?
I'd take a look at the products these guys are selling, too. :-)
Re:TIOBE methodology is so flawed it's pointless (Score:5, Insightful)
What, you don't think Google Go, a language even Google doesn't use in production is just a hair less popular than PL/SQL, the programming language used in an Oracle DB for the last 18 years?
Shocking!
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Yep, just did my daily job check, there's still around 20 new Java, 35 new .NET jobs and no C jobs whatsoever, it looks like C hasn't in fact made a massive leap overnight since I checked yesterday, and TIOBE is in fact still completely useless as you say.
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This symbolizes a shift in control at Google from the engineers to the beancounters. Doing evil will inevitably follow.
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Then again, the first link on the Google search results takes you to Yahoo! Finance. Apparently the bean counters are both evil and anarchists.
Re:TIOBE methodology is so flawed it's pointless (Score:4, Funny)
Speaking of which, C now stands for Citigroup [google.com] according to Google.
Huh? Your search shows "C programming language" as the first hit. "C is for cookie" comes before the citigroup hits.
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Like MS users get financial help, *nix users get technical information.
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If it is advantageous to use the language, then businesses will use it. If its not advantageous to use the language, then its just some minor obscurity that doesn't really mean shit.
These ranking have been under-representing Java, VB/VBA, and Python for years.
Submitter bias: Java's "downward trend" (Score:3, Informative)
"Java has a long term downward trend". Wrong. For one, C and Java share the same "downward trend" from 2002 (earliest year on the chart) and 2007. From 2007 to late last year, both C and Java basically stay about the same. Only in the last 6 months or so can you say Java has been doing down and C rising.
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Well, it's directly copied from the TIOBE site.
Jobs wise, Java still dominates.
Re:Submitter bias: Java's "downward trend" (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Submitter bias: Java's "downward trend" (Score:5, Funny)
> Film at 11.
You're off by 1. The film is actually at 10.
Re:Submitter bias: Java's "downward trend" (Score:4, Funny)
Suggested title: An Inconvenient Knuth
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They have Java ranked as the number one language in 2000. Maybe the number language for discussion, but I remember there being a relatively tiny number of jobs... the majority were C or C++, and I would say that C++ was the main language for anything started in the previous five years. Java was barely out the gates in 2000, four years after all the (over-)hype about applets in the browser (a Pentium 75 for instance could barely run a Java applet in Netscape). Java was mostly an academic language that did
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The language just doesnt dominate a domain. C dominates on the low level, C and Java dominate embedded devices, C++ dominates application space, Java dominates the enterprise. VBA dominates the accounting department.
Delphi doesnt dominate anything, but its got its hands in all of it.
These numbers are garbage (Score:2, Insightful)
There is no way these numbers are anywhere near an approximation of reality.
How many people have real jobs where they get paid to program in Go full-time? Ten guys in the whole world maybe? But it's ranked 15. But when you look at Groovy (the JVM dynamic language) it's ranked at #44, and I personally know at least 20 developers who've used it at a variety of companies (and get paid to do so).
I don't trust these stats at all.
Re:These numbers are garbage (Score:4, Funny)
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Damn if you know 20 developers, Groovy must be like 2-3 at least!
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I'm also curious as to what the point is.
Assuming the numbers are accurate (a big assumption here) all this turns out to be is a big popularity contest. Those have their uses, but none of them are to identify which of something is better. Confounding this further is the very idea of one language being better than another. ( ok, except VB :P ) The simple truth is that programming languages normally come about to fill a niche. Naturally, they are better in that niche.
In the context of the "web" would you argu
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There's no such thing as 'better'. Given an specific task or application, one language may be better suited to it than another, but 'better' or 'best' language has no meaning when looking at all possible applications.
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I think it's fair to say that, regardless of application or task, PHP is always the worst, unless the task is "programming language that dangerous retards can use". At least with languages like C, Java and even Python, there's a sufficient learning curve at the start that it scares precisely the kind of people who shouldn't be writing code.
Java (Score:5, Interesting)
I expect Java to gain ground again as developers create apps for Android phones.
Although the bare-bones Nexus One hasn't sold in huge numbers, HTC have already produced several superb Android-based alternatives, such as the Legend and the Desire. If/when Android becomes the commonplace operating system in the smartphone market, this will lead to a rise in Java development.
In fact, to join in with the recent Apple-bashing (which I whole-heartedly agree with), I'd suggest that mobile app development will move away from the iPhone, in favour of Android phones. When you are investing time and money in app development, there is simply more certainty in developing apps that will live or die on their merits, as opposed to Apple's 'approval' process.
It is now over 2 weeks since Opera Mini was submitted to Apple for approval:
http://my.opera.com/community/countup/ [opera.com]
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Oracle is also putting a lot of resources into desktop Java. So if they don't screw up, it's possible a resurgence (well, a reboot) is on it's way there as well.
And server side Java is king.
Re:Java (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a joke, right? You must have no sense of how broadly Java is used in the industry. Even if Android were to surpass the iPhone in popularity, all the Android apps put together would be just a drop in the bucket next to the massive, active Java codebase in other sectors.
You're onto something with regard to JavaScript's importance, on the other hand, but I'd hardly call that "regrettable". It has its quirks (coerced concatenation with the + operator, some math gotchas), but on the whole it's an excellent programming language, as dynamic imperative languages go. I'm surprised at the extent to which the language is still misunderstood... think of it as Lisp in C's clothing [crockford.com].
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iPhone apps run on the iPhone, the iPod touch, and now the iPad. Commercially, Android, so far, only runs on cell phones. So even if Android does surpass the iPhone, you are only accounting for a percentage of the devices Apple sells in the same marketplace.
0.007% (Score:5, Insightful)
The index is updated once a month. The ratings are based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide, courses and third party vendors. The popular search engines Google, MSN, Yahoo!, Wikipedia and YouTube are used to calculate the ratings
I feel so much confidence in these numbers.
Re:0.007% (Score:5, Funny)
Why not? Hell, I know when I want to check out the goings on in programming the first and last place I turn is YouTube.
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Because with Java - I generally do not need to search the web for the answer. However, take C# for instance, and depending on which OS I'm running on, I may have to run 20 or 30 searches for every single answer, because I thought I might have it - but won't know until I try it whether it works for 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, or 3.51....etc.
More mention of C (Score:2)
The Reinvigorated Programmer [wordpress.com]
Re:More mention of C (Score:5, Interesting)
K&R's book on C is wordy. The true classic is the Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language ALGOL-60. [masswerk.at] In its original typeset form, it is 19 pages.
Languages which need 1000-page books are badly designed.
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K&R's book on C is wordy. The true classic is the Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language ALGOL-60. In its original typeset form, it is 19 pages.
It's strictly a language spec, though, not a book explaining "why" as well as "what".
By modern standards, it's still somewhat underspecified. Especially in parts such as computed gotos, but there were a few other bits as well - which is why they needed Modified Report on the Algorithmic Language Algol 60 [masswerk.at], the rationale for which is:
Meanwhile, various defects have been noted in the language definition which have unnecessarily hindered the use of ALGOL. Although the existence of subsets has given some assista
But what about Johnny Mathis versus Diet Pepsi? (Score:3, Insightful)
Seems about as relevant as ranking programming languages to their popularity. Does the fact that C is #1 mean I should start writing my websites with it (I've done it, actually...and it was extremely fast and extremely painful)?
I don't see how this metric has any use at all, especially given their criteria for determining popularity.
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Oh, I don't know, might give you a hint as to where the jobs are, for one thing?
Can't speak to their methodology (it does sound pretty sketchy, though).
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You shouldn't use C to write web pages any more than I should use PHP and HTML to write my 3D OpenGL programs.
Use the right tool for the job. There is no one fits all.
Re:But what about Johnny Mathis versus Diet Pepsi? (Score:4, Funny)
I write ISAPI filters to serve up WebGL enabled sites you insensitive clod!
Woah! (Score:2)
X is the new Y (Score:2)
Back in the Bush I recession, COBOL was the hip language to learn.
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Nah, nothing can touch C for use on bare metal, and drivers and other lowish level stuff... especially embedded systems.
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You mean other than assembly?
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Yeah, other than assembly is implied ;-)
I do not want to write drivers in asm... ughhh.
The Ultimate Language! (Score:2)
Is naturally, LOGO!
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No... (Score:3, Insightful)
Job listings don't mean very much.
Employees that are very happy with a language, and productive in it, might keep their jobs for years; you may never even know that their companies were using that language. One productive employee might do the job of 10 people in some other language, and maybe that's why they aren't hiring.
Some job postings only made me cringe when I saw them, and many make me think to myself: "all-Microsoft shop, never heard of what X, Y or Z can do". Just because there's a job available, doesn't mean the language is popular; it might even mean the opposite, i.e. all the sane people jumped ship months ago, instead of trying to maintain a steaming pile of code, that a company is now desperately trying to hire people to support.
Don't ever learn one of the stupid programming languages just to get a job. Do something you enjoy...make money without programming if you have to, for awhile, until you find a job that requires languages and platforms that you actually like and can be productive in. Nothing else is worthwhile.
It takes a good programer to apprieate C (Score:3, Interesting)
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Have you ever used Python? I get the distinct impression that you haven't. Especially since you describe the syntax incorrectly.
It's very simple: In any C style, indentation is used to show quickly what is and isn't in a particular code block. Various holy wars were started over where the curly braces go, but the concept of indenting code blocks was pretty consistent. So with Python, you skip the curly braces and just use the indentation. It's not completely idiot-proof (no language is), but it works as wel
C-whatever (Score:5, Interesting)
Remember when languages really looked different - COBOL, PL/1, Fortran, Lisp? I date myself.
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I have heard C++ compared to English, both are the best language for everything, but neither are especially good languages for anything. You can almost always find a better language for any particular task, but it is at least tolerable to use for almost anything, so people use it. C is like one of the more formal varieties of English, like what Sir Ernest Gowers calls Madarin Prose: elegant when used properly, terrible and incomprehensible when used badly (which it often is), somewhat antiquated, and often
Re:C-whatever (Score:5, Interesting)
That's a good comparison. Like the queens english, C is becoming outdated - people want to do more by using the 100,000 lines of someone else's library routines. I think it's the equivalent of the evolution of smileys and lolz :)
There, fixed that for ya.
Read your insurance policy sometime. No I mean really read it. The reason for all that arcane language is because for the last 500 years it has been picked over, argued about, refined and re-worked until everyone agreed what the definition of "is" really is.
The problems with most of the "quote" modern languages is that know one agrees on one object model. Everyone does theirs differently, but guess what, they are all written in two languages and those are C and Assembler.
Pick just about ANY language out there, go ahead pick any one of them. It was written in C or C and Assembler. Even the ones that now can compile themselves the main language used to build the compiler that can compile itself was, wait for it... C.
While C may indeed be the "Queens English" it is still the Queens English and is the root of all other dialects and will remain so.
Re:C-whatever (Score:4, Insightful)
It's because programmers love their dangerous and primitive dinosaur language (least common denominator). As a consequence, we still have to deal with buffer overflows and other stupid problems that should have been fixed decades ago.
You could not be more wrong on both counts. As to the rest of your post, there is nothing elegant about Java and Python is just a bit of stupidity that someone wrote and passed it off as a scripting language.
No Programmers love the simple elegance of C. C is a masterwork, it is subtle, it is sublime.
Buffer overflows are caused by lazy and stupid programmers abusing a simple an elegant language that has all the power you need to prevent buffer overflows by simply taking the small step to bounds check your buffer as you proceed to willy-nilly stuff data into it.
Java is a crutch for those that cannot find the time to write something correctly. There are major works written in C that will compile on ANY platform with a C compiler and the standard libraries. If you write your code to the ansi C standard it will compile anywhere. That is the design of a portable language and you end up will small, efficient and fast executables.
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the functions of the standard library (and yes, the standard library is part of the language standard) have got cryptic names (because C programmers are too lazy to type, same problem with UNIX shell commands)
UNIX shell commands are short for historical reasons. They were originally designed to be used over remote terminal connections, at whopping speeds of 300 bauds. At that point, saving a character or two actually has a noticeable effect on speed.
C function names are also short for historical reasons. Specifically, in K&R C (and, if I recall correctly, also in ANSI C89 / ISO C90), the implementation was only required to treat the first 6 characters of a function or variable name declared in another compil
Re:C-whatever (Score:5, Informative)
Amusingly enough, the interpreters/compilers for all those languages were originally developed in C and/or C++.
It would have been rather hard for the original Lisp compiler to be written in C since it predates the existence of C by almost a decade. Not to mention how for a decade or more that Lisp was pretty much running only on Lisp machines that were built to natively execute Lisp code. And most of the original Smalltalk implementations were also not written in C.
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Re:C-whatever (Score:5, Insightful)
If you use Python, Java or whatever you are too far away from the metal to do the interesting stuff.
That's because they are specifically designed to abstract away the computer hardware.
Robots only use C (Score:4, Interesting)
Robot programming has become very big lately, and the overwhelming number of microcontrollers out there only use C/C++ (well, and Assembly, but that doesn't count).
Re:Why C? (Score:5, Interesting)
C and Java are for different things.
C is a great systems language, it lets you get great performance, interact directly with the hardware and still stay fairly portable. Java is a great applications language, it lets you get work done quickly, runs very fast and is extremely portable and secure (which is getting more important everyday as Microsoft's grip on the desktop industry is on a slow but seriously downward trend).
It makes sense that these two would be at the top, popularity wise.
Re:Why C? (Score:5, Funny)
Java is extremely portable. A Java application can be run anywhere someone wrote a VM for it in C or C++.
Re:Why C? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep, as I pointed out, it's an application language not a systems language.
reading comprehension++
Re:Why C? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your point is?
What I think you're being snide about (how Java still depends on C) is misguided. That's the point - nobody's saying your system programming languages are dead. At the end of the day, something needs to be a straight sequence of 0s and 1s that the processor can just run, and that's where C dominates. There's a lot of things (like scheduling algorithms) that really can't be written in a higher level language, either.
But at this point, the only reasons you'd need to use C would be for low-level systems programming, as a base for another language (interpreter/JIT VM), or anywhere where you *really* need to manage your own memory or get close-to-assembly performance. (not) Coincidentally, this covers just about everything C is used for nowadays. Many small utilities are now written in Python, particularly small accessory GUI programs on Linux.
Fact is, a higher level language like Java is just faster to program in, and for a basic application it's more than fast enough. But we'll never lose C, at least because all these higher-level fancy applications need to run on something, and nobody wants to write that "something" in straight assembly.
Re:Why C? (Score:4, Insightful)
"I get the point, but a lot of people get the idea to use Java if you want your apps to run anywhere, which is just idiotic, if you want it run really almost anywhere and are ready to make an extra effort, C is a far better choice than Java."
No, it's really not. Java apps are portable because they're write once, run anywhere there's a JVM. C apps are only portable if you write for every single different platform providing a suitable C compiler exists for each of those platforms.
The issue is that you're confusing a portable application, with an application that can be ported, and having to specifically port for each platform is expensive as it requires much more development time, and it creates more headaches in terms of debugging etc. as you face platform specific issues more often.
The extra effort to go cross platform on C isn't trivial, if you've got to write an IO, networking, graphics, threading abstraction layer and so forth, as well as multiple implementations of for those abstractions layers to get your app to run on multiple platforms then it's likely going to be equivalent to re-writing your entire app a few times over. What's worse is you do not get the inherent security benefits of a language like Java either, meaning the end result is a lot more work, much harder debugging of platform specific issues, much higher chance of security flaws and for what? certainly no worthwhile performance gain.
This is why C is best kept as a systems language- creating things like JVMs, drivers, kernels and so forth it's just fine for. But replacing Java for cross platform application development if Java is an option? that's insane.
Part of being a good developer is using the right tool for the job, anyone recommending C when Java is an option for cross platform development cannot possibly be classed as a good developer, advocating C over Java where Java is an option is simply the sign of a developer who is not capable of picking the right tool for the job.
I'm not even advocating Java as the be all and end all of languages, I don't use it at work, I use C# and .NET because we're a Microsoft based company and C# and .NET simply offer much better development tools, albeit at the expense of portability. It really is about using the right tool for the job to get the best balance of cost, features, and quality possible, and languages like Java have simply matured to offer a far superior solution to many of the more classic languages like C and C++, even if those languages do deserve a special place in our hearts in terms of the behemoths they once were- the languages which you could pretty much just do everything in.
Of course, it's not a new situation either, assembly programmers said about C, what C programmers say about Java. Unfortunately, those who say these are those unable to keep up with the times rather than recognise and sensibly weigh up the benefits and disadvantages of each option.
Re:Why C? (Score:4, Insightful)
"anyone recommending C when Java is an option for cross platform development cannot possibly be classed as a good developer,"
Very few systems (especially in house ones) require true cross platform development so that's generally irrelevant anyway.
"advocating C over Java where Java is an option is simply the sign of a developer who is not capable of picking the right tool for the job."
Or maybe its a developer who doesn't have a knee jerk reaction that the tool that leads to the quickest prototype is the best. I've developed back-end trading apps in the past that required the fastest possible throughput of data (we're talking down to milliseconds being shaved off here) to beat the competition and for that Java simply was not an option. We went for a mixture of C and C++ using the standard sockets API and the system was blazingly fast.
Not every "app" is some floppy piece of GUI code that sits there doing bugger all 99% of its life - some apps are back end systems that are maxed out all the working day and for that you can't beat C and C++.
Re:Why C? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Very few systems (especially in house ones) require true cross platform development so that's generally irrelevant anyway."
That's too blanket a statement to be valid in the general case, it's certainly true for some companies. As I stated however, our company is Microsoft based, however even here we want to expand some of our apps onto mobile devices and we have a combination of them such that Java is the only real sensible option. Of all the companies I've worked in I've yet to work in one that only ever has a single platform throughout the entire company, they've all had the odd Linux server between their Microsoft servers, a combination of mobile devices and so forth. It's certainly not an uncommon situation to want apps to be portable. There's also the issues of larger companies which have different operating subsidiaries who have to share some apps and data, but who also are given autonomy on IT decisions from subsidiary to subsidiary- Java absolutely excels here, it acts as a common language that just works between subsidiaries pretty much whatever their platform choices.
If you're not developing in house applications and are developing to sell Java makes sense too, because there's no point writing say, a piece of helpdesk software in C# .NET, or C/C++ with multiple binaries to sell when you can just write once with Java and inherently have a product that works across Windows, Linux and Mac OS X greatly expanding your potential clientbase.
"Or maybe its a developer who doesn't have a knee jerk reaction that the tool that leads to the quickest prototype is the best."
Whose talking about prototypes? I'm referring to real working apps.
"I've developed back-end trading apps in the past that required the fastest possible throughput of data (we're talking down to milliseconds being shaved off here) to beat the competition and for that Java simply was not an option."
Really? Apparentlyy the NYSE doesn't agree with you:
http://www.nyse.com/tradingsolutions/transacttools/1204674243385.html [nyse.com]
"Not every "app" is some floppy piece of GUI code that sits there doing bugger all 99% of its life - some apps are back end systems that are maxed out all the working day and for that you can't beat C and C++."
Simply put, you're wrong. Java performs just as well as C/C++ in many cases, better in some, slightly worse than others. This is largely because the JIT compiler is better suited to optimising per platform, rather than per architecture like classic compilers. Plenty of case studies here for Java use in HPC for example:
http://www.sun.com/customers/index.xml?soln=31a8487e-0f60-11da-99bc-080020a9ed93&page=1&sort=date&asc=false [sun.com]
The fact that you talk about Java being faster simply for prototyping, the fact you are not aware of the fact that Java performs just as well in many cases as C/C++, and the fact that you do not think Java is used for high load back end processing demonstrates one thing- you do not know enough about Java to be able to correctly evaluate whether it is the right tool for the job or not in the face of C/C++ and are a good example of the type of developer I was referring to as not being a great developer for this reason. It may well be that C/C++ was in fact the right tool for your particular solution after all (i.e. if you had some custom hardware to take advantage of), but as you clearly don't know much about Java, you cannot possibly say for sure whether that was the case or not, despite the fact you are attempting assert otherwise.
The likes of eBay runs on Java and much of Google's back end work is done with Java also. There's a good reason it's the most prominent language in business still today and has been for a while. It's because it does offer advantages, it is versatile, and yes, it ca
Re:Why C? (Score:5, Interesting)
That was partially my point. Java's security track record for applications is amazing. Look at the current generation game consoles, the only console that has yet to be exploited for piracy in a practical fashion has a Java based security framework.
Java also powers most of the major internet applications available today.
But Java isn't great at everything, C fits in places Java doesn't.
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"Because for every dozen C/C++ applications there are about 1 Java application out there. And since Java runs mostly somewhere in corporate data center, it also has much less exposure to all the security risks."
No, because Java offers inherent protection against buffer overflows, which have been the bane of C/C++ security for, well, forever.
"On the security topic, I have recently seen an example where Java service was easily tricked into dropping whole DB. Java might have removed problems with strings handl
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C has an iron-fist grasp on certain niche markets. For one part, there are very few other languages that require so little in terms of bootstrapping. You can run C code (sans standard library) on bare metal, requiring only that you set up the stack before you go. So for systems programming, and code run on embedded systems, C stands uncontested.
Re:Why C? (Score:4, Insightful)
Haha, you're young (and a douchebag).
Yes, I will take the karma for that.
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Re:Java is crap anyway (Score:4, Insightful)
FTFA:
Philistines! Heathens! There is nothing more beautiful than a good piece of assembly code.
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And nothing more nightmarish than bad assembly.
Re:Java is crap anyway (Score:4, Informative)
And nothing more nightmarish than bad assembly.
Have you seen a thorough Spring implementation?
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Yes, Spring architecture is fantastic. There's a reason why VMWare paid so damn much for it.
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That'd be the #1 reason on the long list of reasons why Spring sucks. IoC. It's main raison d'être, from the initial release, was to allow the injection of test code, ie, mocks. Why on earth would you ever have "test code" in your production code? Much better to have a test framework instead. Harder to code initially, yes. Less invasively? Immeasurably.
Not only that, it's merely a factory method call that can generally be coded in 4 or 5 lines and be type checked during compilation instead of runtime (
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Test code doesn't end up in production, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Spring is normally used in conjunction with a test framework like JUnit - in fact, Spring contains explicit test harness support (@ExpectedException, JNDI stuff, and so forth).
Spring is good at lots of stuff - annotated transactions, annotated MVC (in Spring 3), etc. etc. IoC is very convenient also, particularly with auto-scanning.
That said, I'm not some huge fan of Java the language. But Java the "ecosystem" (or whatever
Re:Java is crap anyway (Score:5, Interesting)
If the only reason you have the IoC code in your code is to facilitate testing, then the IoC code is test code.
MVC (in Spring3)? Really? You mean MVC in Spring 1.x or Spring 2.x sucked? Say it isn't so! So now MVC in Spring 3 is the cat's meow? Excuse me while I take a pass.
Spring's transactions are a massive headache when you need to alter or overload a specific operation. Yeah, it seems "cool" when a simple annotation will give you a "transaction", but later on, when you need to modify one bit of code somewhere in the stream or if you're really daring, have a transaction with rollbacks across multiple operations that weren't envisioned in the original design.... let's just agree to disagree and you can deal with all the crap that Spring heaps on you while you cut and paste code and debug it a week later when individual operations change due to changing requirements and I'll be at the bar sipping something cold and enjoying myself after an hour or two's work.
You didn't even mention Spring Security (ie, Acegi) which was so horribly broken 1.5 years ago that it is completely unusable in anything resembling a commercial application. Why, you ask? (I just know that was on the tip of your tongue) Because Acegi as of the current release at that time uses a token held by a thread, and limited the ability of a token to be held to a single thread. In layman's terms - there's only a single lane on the highway, folks.
I still stand by my statement of years ago: Spring is a solution in search of a problem and is a source of not so subtle bugs which most will only realize once they're in far too deep to easily pull out. It truly deserves a picture next to the kool-aid in the wikipedia story about project killers.
I will agree that JUnit4 is pretty darn decent all by itself. Without Spring.
And just in case you think I haven't worked with it - I've dealt with 4 separate large projects and analyzed the problems in various external codebases in 3 different companies that bought into the Spring kool-aid all the way back to before Spring 1.0. I shamefully admit I was even a proponent in the early days, before I actually used it in a big project. Now Spring has joined Apache Commons in the list of libraries to remove asap.
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For the web-tier, absolutely nothing beats the Stripes [stripesframework.org] Framework.
Re:Java is crap anyway (Score:5, Funny)
And nothing more nightmarish than bad assembly.
(I (disagree (there (is (a (missing) (parenthesis (somewhere)) in)) (your Lisp code)))
Re:Java is crap anyway (Score:5, Funny)
Well it could have been worse.
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(there (is (a (missing)
(parenthesis (somewhere))
in))
(your Lisp code)))
)
Ah, Lips. er, lisspth. Whatever. (Score:3, Funny)
Lisp'ers just need you to cons() them into a good palette edit. So take 'em out of their nest in your cars() to an indentist, and C to it. Make sure you get parenthetical permission first, though.
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Re:Java is crap anyway (Score:5, Funny)
Meh. When I want to show people how bad perl is, I just open up a text editor. Mash my face against the keyboard a couple of times. Then point out that the resulting gibberish is valid perl.
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