Microsoft Wants Your Feedback On Its New Python IDE 303
First time accepted submitter phoolishcyrus writes "Dear Slashdot: would you kindly take a look at our little project, PTVS — Python Tools for Visual Studio? It helps you develop Python (using any interpreter, not just IronPython) and comes with a few other goodies. Spare no punches."
What the shell is this? (Score:4, Interesting)
"Note: PTVS does not install into VS Express Editions" [codeplex.com]. It needs some sort of Visual Studio Shell [microsoft.com], which is separate from VS Express for some odd reason.
And has Microsoft added the necessary pieces to the version of the .NET Compact Framework for Xbox 360 Indie Games and Windows Phone 7 to allow DLR languages such as IronPython to work in applications for those platforms?
Visual Studio Isolated Shell (Score:2)
VS Express can't use plugins. That's one of the "upsell" features of Visual Studio Professional and higher.
So to build plugins that's free for anyone to use without needing to pay the ~$400 for Visual Studio you need to use the Visual Studio Isolated Shell [microsoft.com]
Re:What the shell is this? (Score:4, Informative)
A simple way to explain the difference between VS Express and VS Shell is this:
VS Shell is VS without any language-specific services. Basically you get the core IDE services only - menus, toolbars & tool windows, command system to wire it all up, text editor (with syntax highlighting, but you need a language plugin to drive it), and core build services. This is mainly intended for the use by anyone who's making their own language, and wants to build it on top of an existing IDE - they just take VS Shell, slap their own language service and project system on top, and redistribute the result. One real world example of a commercial product doing this is Delphi Prism. However, the side effect is that Shell can also be used by end users to install extensions on top to get a working product for free.
VS Express (like any other VS version) is, essentially, VS Shell + whatever language the Express edition supports (C#/VB/C++); but with any further extensibility disabled.
In other words, with VS, for free, you can either have plugins (in particular, other third-party languages) without Microsoft's C++/C#/VB tooling, or C++/C#/VB tooling without plugins. If you want both at the same time, you need VS Professional or higher, which is not free.
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Last time I checked Windows Phone 7 _does_not_ support "the full .NET CF". In fact it supports very little of what we have come to expect in .Net CF.
Java bashers, where are you? (Score:2)
Where are the Java bashers when you really need them? Oh, they either use patent unencumered scripting languages or go the MS way, but not both at the same time.
Btw. does anyone use IronPyhton and F#, or they just look good in PR blurbs?
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Where are the Java bashers when you really need them?
They're involved in a flame war with the C# bashers at the moment, but don't worry, they'll be along shortly after hell freezes over....
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Btw. does anyone use IronPyhton and F#, or they just look good in PR blurbs?
Seriously, F# is awesome. These course notes and code examples explain why in far more detail than I ever could. http://www.itu.dk/courses/BPRD/E2010/ [www.itu.dk].
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He didn't ask if F# was cool or not, he asked if anyone was using it. There are a ton of really cool languages that are not really in use anywhere outside of college campuses and hobby projects.
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In case other slashdotters want to read it, there's already coral cache:
http://www.itu.dk.nyud.net/courses/BPRD/E2010/ [nyud.net]
(: Thanks, whoever did that.
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Ups and Downs (Score:3, Informative)
Are you serious? (Score:3, Insightful)
Whilst you continue extorting $5 per Android handset from HTC [thenextweb.com] your new touchy-feely lets-be-buddies act is worth less than piss froth. So no, I won't even be dignifying your request with a visit to your site out of curiosity.
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He that lies down with dogs, shall rise up with fleas.
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What they're trying, desperately I might add, is to bring developers to Windows, to work on it's platform.
Because Windows is just starving for developers
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Ribbon Bar for Python (Score:2)
I believe the phrase is (Score:2)
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I thought "pull no punches" meant "don't hit me too hard" and "spare no punches" means "swing all you want".
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No, a pulled punch is one that is not too hard. You pull back at the last moment, and don't hit with force. "Don't pull any punches" means, hit me full-force.
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my brain must think it is bass akwards day.
I installed it a whle back... (Score:3)
I am **extremely** impressed. It's, by far, my favourite Python IDE (I'm using it in the free Visual Studio shell...)
One drawback is that it encourages editing python under Windows rather than on a Unix-like platform, but that's something I can live with when it delivers productivity.
I'm yet to use it for a real project - but I'm looking forwards to that experience.
I'd definitely encourage anyone to, at least, give it a try.
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Eric or Epic? I used Epic for Perl code that needed to be debugged. I was REALLY impressed.
MSI install (Score:2)
Hi Microsoft! Thanks for releasing stuff under an Apache license. Now if, for some reason I end up in Hell, at least I know I will be comfortable with a big coat, because it should be freezing there.
I will report to you about the program once I figure it out how to install an MSI on Debian.
Yours truly: the average Linux geek that reads Slashdot.
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Holy shit your right! sudo dpkg -i setup.exe doesn't work either!
What's the point of a Python IDE? (Score:2)
Warning! Potentially dumb question:
What value does a Python IDE provide? Given that Python is strongly typed only at run-time, the IDE cannot perform syntax-completion, rename variables, provide warnings/errors as you type, provide context sensitive help, etc., that you would normally get with an IDE for a statically typed language such as Java. Might as well just stick to using your favorite text editor.
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The short version is that just because it uses runtime typing doesn't mean you can't make really accurate guesses about what types will be active at any given point. Consider a really short Python program (consisting of something like "x=MyObject()" and "print x.method()"): it's easy to infer the type of x at its declaration, recognize there is no code path that rebinds x to a different type, and when accessing x later on pop up code completion that shows MyObject methods.
Looks good, too much friction (Score:2)
I read the docs for this yesterday, came away impressed about things like iPython integration and the idea that other IDE features of VS could be used for Python. That said, I'm stuck with the position that is it simply too much work and pain to use Windows as an underlying platform, when what I deploy to is largely web apps running on Linux/OSX. I use Windows 7 in virtual machines to test sites with MSIE, and Windows Explorer WebDAV, but that is about it -- it is a pain to do much more in a VM. I just
Code::Blocks (Score:2)
I use Code::Blocks. It runs on all platforms so my code looks and acts the same when I'm building on whatever platform I need my applications to run on. If I need my application to run on Linux/Mac/Windows I open the cbp file, add the needed ifndef's, adjust for the libraries, and compile. If you build GUI applications WxWidgets work very nicely with Code::Blocks. Code::Blocks has been doing Python for quite a while now. Python Plugin [codeblocks.org]
No App Store For U! (Score:2)
For Microsoft: The only way you guys can return to being the platform of choice is to have the biggest app store. It isn't going to happen. You moved to proprietary languages in an attempt to further your grip and lost it all. There will never again be a "only works on Windows". There is only room for two and Android has already rounded the second corner while you sit at the gate.
For the two people that might not know: Most applications these days are based on Python, Java, and HTML/CSS/javascript, wi
MSFT guy here. will answer as many Q's (Score:5, Informative)
as best I can (while running between meetings)! Thanks for all your comments & questions so far.
Background info:
PTVS is basically a 2 person (1 dev, 1 test) effort. Recently we had a summer intern & a new dev has joined since to work on Big Data (think dryad/hadoop/etc) which is great. We've been running "under the radar" so to speak until now. The parts that we're actually most proud of are that we convinced mgmt to let us do this as Open Source, and more importantly under Apache 2.0. The fact we can actually accept code contributions back (may be a 1st?) is huge too. Not a big deal for most, but trust me, as staunch pro OSS guys, it was a big deal & took a lot of work to accomplish...
Thanks in advance & on to answering questions...
PS Just updated the project page w a couple of videos to give you an overview. Excuse the cheesy production, we don't exactly have a marketing dept.
PTVS - Core editing experience : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoGsSlrxKk [youtube.com]
PTVS - Profiling : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCx7rlPyEzE [youtube.com]
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I'm not a Windows guy, mostly. Can't avoid it completely, but I try to whenever I can. Most of my work is done in various UNIXes. That said:
Thank you.
Seriously. Please ignore the haters. Me, I'm tickled pink y'all are doing this work: anything that helps the Python community is A-OK in my book. :)
(goes off to his Windows 7/64 desktop to install PTVS...)
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And that includes a coffee break.
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Wow! It took you three minutes to assess it.
To be fair he probably only read "Vendor: Microsoft".
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FTFY
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe there's people who already have Visual Studio for other work purposes and also do python stuff?
It seems unlikely they'd make it if there was nobody using python on Windows.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
First all python IDEs I've used stink. Now I have not used them all so I'd be happy to hear suggests but please keep reading. So MS entry is welcome
Second, unless this IDE is cross platform it will HURT not help python programming. Even if you plan just to eat your own dogfood, you mere use of it means that it MS only features wil creep into your lexicon and those of your colleagues. Don't do that. use cross platform tools.
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Honestly, it's probably Microsoft themselves using it. You may not realize it, but Perl is actually very big inside Microsoft. A ton of their scripts and other tools are done in Perl.
I'm guessing they also have a growing collection of stuff done in Python as well, so being able to maintain their toolset in Visual Studio would be a d
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After using IDLE, Emacs, and Elcipse (on install worked decent, a later install sucked), I'm certainly willing to try it. I like Python, it's just hard to find a decent auto-complete (which, given python, is very understandable - heck, you can trivially add/remove member from an object runtime.)
Stupid python tricks:
__builtins__.__dict__['fool'] = 1 #`print foo` produces 1
__builtins__.__dict__['some variable']=45 #`print some variable` obviously can't work, but it is still amusing
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Actually, that's what I was referring to when one install was ok, and a later install sucked - eclipse with pydev.
I'm not great at remember the members of a given class, and I hate going back and forth.
Autocompletion (Score:2)
I use M-x hippie-expand. Bind it to M-/:
(global-set-key (kbd "M-/") 'hippie-expand)
It's not a precise auto-completer so it won't help you discover what's in the objects (I personally use the shell for experimenting), but on the other hand it'll let you auto-complete in comments or strings. I use that feature frequently.
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I program Python, I like MS Visual Studio, I think this is awesome.
Why would Python programmers be averse to Windows?
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Why would Python programmers be averse to Windows?
Some programmers are religious.
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Whatever, you'd think they'd be happy that there was a new way for their enemies to see/use an open source language.
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While I do get your points about the desktop, your statement about setup is plain bullshit. You might have trouble finding your desired programs if you are new to windows vs. experienced Linux user, but once the machine is set up, it's done, it's there - there is no more time sink there - claiming that to be a big issue is just wrong.
Regarding your point about the scroll: http://gigaom.com/mobile/scroll-in-windows-without-the-cursor-focus/ [gigaom.com] - very first hit on google...
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your statement about setup is plain bullshit. You might have trouble finding your desired programs if you are new to windows vs. experienced Linux user, but once the machine is set up, it's done, it's there
Maybe in a perfect world that is true but in my day to day work, I am always faced with new challenges that I need a new tool for. Just recently, I had to write a python script to automate logging in and downloading a product spreadsheet for an ecommerce site one of my customers runs. Open up Synaptic and search for python and html, python-mechanize showed up, I clicked install and was off and running. Took about 1 minute. If you are claiming that it is just as easy to meet changing requirements on a wi
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Another point is maintenance: the package installed via Synaptic will be updated automatically for you. Moreover, packages are updated in synchrony, so if a security fix needs changes to several libraries, all those libraries are updated for you in one go.
On Windows you have to do all that work yourself. Not just checking for and installing updates, but ensuring that the stack of installed packages you are using function together correctly.
I'm hoping that CoApp will bring something like this fantastic s
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Well I've been implementing a WinForms project under Iron Python for a few months now, but because WinForms was not supported under the previous released of Python for VS I've been using SharpDevelop (which is actually pretty good, although debugging is a hassle). VS however is one of the nicest IDEs on the market and I'll certainly look at this.
IronPython is really nice, quick and a lot less hassle than C#.
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My "Why?" question is: Why do people think they need an IDE for Python at all?
I could see people using an IDE for a brittle, boilerplate-filled language like C++, but I don't see how it helps developing in a stripped down language like Python. I've never felt the need for anything beyond gvim with a few tweaked macro settings for Python development. I really don't see the need to overcomplicate things with some kind of "Studio" just to write some code in a scripting language.
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I use vim for python as well (although I haven't been using it for more than six months so I still have a lot to learn) but, to my knowledge, no auto completion is as good as the one in VS.
That might be a big plus for some people, specially if they can't afford or don't want to spend time tweaking vim/emacs to fit their needs.
Having said that, after learning vim, I'd hate having to use an IDE without it's keybindings (thank God for vsvim and jVim).
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bigsexyjoe, that's a good question. It's not "MS" that's wants feedback. It's the 3 ppl that work on the project that want feedback. 99.99% of MS doesnt even know we exist :)
Yes, we can go to an MS forum & get nice pats on the back, but we figured you guys will give us some honest feedback we can't get anywhere else.
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Umm, just because it costs money, and it is made by MS, doesn't make it crapware. Yeah, Visual studios is *huge*, particularly if you install everything. But then, so would be Eclipse if you had to combine a C and Java compiler with it, and all the other tools needed to give it the same features as Visual Studio, as well as a massive amount of documentation. What you don't want those extra tools in VS? Then don't install them, and have a smaller footprint.
Sheesh.
Simply put, it handles auto-complete and code
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After I tried IntelliJ I'm done with open source IDE; there is simply no competing.
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Technically, IntelliJ tools are built on top of free IDEA Community Edition.
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Take your crapware...
You've not actually tried it, have you?
That's a bit like posting in a technical discussion without reading the article. It makes you look like an idiot.
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Microsoft's IDEs are very good.
Note that while VS is not FOSS, this project *is*, which means users can take and extend its functionality as needed
WHOOSH! [bitbucket.org]
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Technically, your distributor needs to provide packages for your distribution. Therefor reporting a lack of packages in your package-management-system will be redirected to your distributor, not Microsoft.
But you can complain about the fact that you "can't find the downloads for Windows and Visual Studio directly on the Microsoft website because it is too cluttered up, and therefor you had to download it from a third-party-website (and still no binaries for Linux/BSD/MacOS to be found)".
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Microsoft, would you kindly ask for our review without using mindtricks and making me question my true origin, as I did check out the plugin after reading that line?
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Yes, Microsoft. I will try your open source software, as soon as you port it to an open source OS.
Linux, anyone? (Score:2)
MS ... is trying to be nice.
Maybe so, but only in a half-hearted, sullen, and mean-spirited way - which is admittedly an improvement for them. A cynic might surmise that they're just putting more effort into concealing their embedded evil.
If they were to start releasing some of their significant applications on Linux and/or BSD (as paid commercial packages, like some other vendors), then I'd agree that they're probably trying to be actually nice instead of just faking it.
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A cynic might surmise that they're just putting more effort into concealing their embedded evil.
What does this have to do with Windows Mobile?
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MS is the big bully that has had it's ass kicked by the new bigger bully - Apple - and is trying to be nice....
"Sherman, set the Wayback Machine for 1995!"
IBM is the big bully that has had its ass kicked by the new bigger bully - MS - and is trying to be nice....
And the cycle of history repeats itself.
Re:Oh come on! (Score:4)
The problem with these movies is that they end where the bigger bully leaves town. What they don't show is that the bully returns to his start-of-the-movie-ways.
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I'd like to know what Guido thinks of this.
If I do a new PSA budget, will I have to add a line item for M$?
Wow, 20 years of making sure my indents aren't screwed up.
http://www.python.org/doc/humor/#psa-budget [python.org]
Trying to be nice? (Score:2)
Nope. They're offering a free plugin for their own commercial software. Basically, they're just trying to shift more units of Visual Studio. Not nice, not evil, just normal commercial behaviour.
Unless of course the Python code produced will only run on Windows. Can anyone confirm...?
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Didn't you ever watch the '80's teenage movies? Where the big bully gets his ass kicked by the new kid (bigger bully) that moved into town. And after getting his ass kicked, learns his lesson, befriends the geeks he picked on and they team up and beat the bigger bully?
It sure sounds like a trite, Hollywood plot, but I honestly can't remember a single movie from the '80s like that. Revenge of the Nerds? Nope. Karate Kid? Nope. Three O'Clock High? Nope.
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Re:Is this even made by microsoft? Ans: No (Score:2)
From the Codeplex home page:
CodePlex is hosted by Microsoft. Microsoft does not control, review, revise, endorse or distribute the third party projects on this site. Microsoft is hosting the CodePlex site solely as a web storage site as a service to the developer community. For more information, read the CodePlex Terms of Use.
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And it rocks !! Both !! At the same time !! Because it's free !! As in beer !! And beer ROCKS !! Until the lease expires !! Then it's just pisswater !! Unless it's BUD !! Then it alway was pisswater !!
It's already expired? TFA:
It's a free & open source plug-in for Visual Studio 2010
Quick Start Guide ...
1. Uninstall any previous versions of "IronPython Tools" or PTVS (if any)
2. Install a Python distribution
3. Install Visual Studio 2010
4.
At point 4, they should have written "Profit" - last time I checked the Visual Studio 2010 (not the Express version) is NOT free.
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It will not work with VS Express, but it will apparently work with VS Shell, which is free. VS Shell is just the IDE without any of the language compilers included.
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I don't think anyone is supporting Python in netbeans any more.
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But on the other hand, if you're already locked in for whatever reason, I don't think its a bad thing to have access to such a versatile and portable language such as python.
I'm sensing a false dichotomy in that statement somewhere.
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...lock you in... dangerous ...
It produces plain-text ASCII source code files. How is that lock-in? Why not use the best IDE/compiler for your code development? It's a free download.
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I think the general consensus is that Visual Studio is the best IDE out there with Eclipse coming in second, and a bunch of also runs in the distance.
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Uhm. You're wrong.
The best IDE is IDEA ( http://www.jetbrains.com/ [jetbrains.com] ) with everything else coming in distant second.
BTW, there's PyCharm IDE for Python from IDEA creators: http://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/ [jetbrains.com] and it's really great.
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Because pydev is for Eclipse and Eclipse makes me want to blow my brains out?
Oh great, just what we need. Another IDE zealot. Eclipse vs Visual Studio is the new Vi vs Emacs. The more things change...
Meanwhile in the real world, people will just carry on using the best tool for the job.
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It lets the atheists write code more conveniently.
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its true - now if only the DoJ had broken MS up way back, we'd have Visual Studio for Linux by now.
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'cause I run all my Python code in the IDE, amirite?
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"Is windows only. Python is a cross-platform language. A non-cross-platform IDE for Python makes as much sense as having a solar-cell operated night-vision camera. FAIL."
And yet, I find that all of the Python scripts that I develop to do tasks in the Windows environment at my office work just fine in Windows (duh). Python may be cross platform, but I bet the majority of the code written in Python is only run in a single environment, or even a single machine. So if I run it in Windows, and develop it in Windows, why do I care that my IDE only runs in Windows?
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If it were gay, it would be well designed, clean and would live in a great neighbourhood with good services.
But it would cost twice as much, be only in one color, and you would have to be careful about how you hold it.
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Visual Studio is a huge project that requires special features from the OS (like debugging ports for the debugger). Porting it to Unix would be a massive undertaking. And what would be the gain? Who would buy it? Maybe some on OS X, but there's already XCode, which I understand to be at least half-way decent, depending on who you ask, and not likely to be unseated by a Windows-style program from the Great Satan. MS won't make any money on the 7 Linux users who would actually buy Visual Studio. It just