$30,000 For a Developer Referral? 189
itwbennett writes "Are good developers really that hard to find? Cambridge, MA-based inbound marketing company HubSpot seems to think so. The company has upped its developer referral bonus from $10,000 to $30,000 — and you don't have to be an employee to get in on the deal. Beats a free puppy. What has your experience been with referral bonuses?"
Recruiter Commision (Score:5, Informative)
If the company goes through a recruiter, they pay around 20-25% of the employee's annual salary to the recruiter (if the employee sticks around for 'x' months). So this may be reasonable for the company for a job which pays 100K to 150K annually.
Re:Recruiter Commision (Score:4, Informative)
2-3 months salary is normal around here for recruiter pay (Holland). But recruiters are rather vilified and not trusted. Most companies, large and small, I know don't work with independent recruiters. Don't trust them further than you can throw them.
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Everyone should.
They are worse than used car sellers. The only folks worse are home inspectors. Even if you select one yourself, and pay him yourself he will still miss tons of stuff and try to give you the best impression of the house. This is because you are not likely to need future inspections but the realtor is. Also in many/most states they are only liable up to the cost of the inspection.
Making realtors and home inspectors at least as liable for issues with the property as used car salesmen are would
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You would be far better served by getting a plumber, a roofer, a HVAC tech, and a general contrator to look at the place. It would not cost you anymore either. The home inspector is just there to rubber stamp the house so you can get a mortgage. Anyone who is not willing to take some liability might as well not look at the place at all.
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You would be far better served by getting a plumber, a roofer, a HVAC tech, and a general contrator to look at the place. It would not cost you anymore either. The home inspector is just there to rubber stamp the house so you can get a mortgage. Anyone who is not willing to take some liability might as well not look at the place at all.
Or possibly worse, the home inspector can go on a markup rampage, flagging absolutely everything and marking everything as "very serious" or "safety hazard" even when the problem is very minor. All to cover his own butt. The inspection is then basically worthless.
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I am not sure how that is worse.
I would imagine in a system with liability for a home inspector he would have to pay for the service call when the repair folks do their initial inspection and estimate. Since he would have cause unneeded work.
In such a system the home inspector would get insurance and bad ones would not be able to continue to get those policies.
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We are talking about $500-$1000. An HVAC tech will want about $100 to clean and inspect, the roofer and contractor about the same. The plumber will vary, but even with cameraing the main you are looking at no more than $300 for him.
Why would you buy a home that is not your last?
I have no intention to sell my house unless I am forced to move by my job. Perhaps more than the expected number of children could also motivate me to get another home, but unlikely. I shared a bedroom and my offspring could do the s
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That does make sense then.
Is there a reason you believe you will not want to stay in this home?
I for instance bought a ranch, since stairs will become a problem with age. I have had many relatives forced to sell homes they lived in for decades for that exact reason.
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I have never had this experience with a home inspector. I pay them myself and select them myself and I have never hand anyone behave in less than a professional way. They certainly did not give me a rosy picture of the house I bought. 10 years after I feel like what they told me was quite accurate. I have had to fix the things they pointed out and very little else really.
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Mine missed major issues.
Main line had tree roots and the issue was apparent if you ran the water in two locations at once. So shower and sink near washing machine, for example, the water backed up into basement or at least flowed out very slowly. The furnace short cycled and had a cracked heat exchanger, which a carbon monoxide detector should have found.
There were also many minor issues like the fact that the kitchen sink drain was improperly repaired and leaking. Also everything was done on the cheap by
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The only folks worse are home inspectors.
I had an awesome home inspector. He found all sorts of details, down to "this faucet drain doesn't quite close right" and "the window sills are kind of sticky and you'll probably want them cleaned." I've been in the house five years now and can't think of anything important he overlooked. Maybe he's a rare find and I got lucky, as he's the only one I've ever used.
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You got very lucky.
You should make sure to recommend him to people you know and review him online.
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The realtor doesn't actually own the property, while the used car salesman's company actually does own the car, in regards to liability that's all the difference in the world.
A seller on the other hand needs to fill out a full disclosure or they can get sued, so the laws are already in place?
What I'd really like to see is less "as is" properties and banks taking more responsibility for the shortsales and bank owned properties they sell, "as is" just isn't good enough from a trillion dollar company imo. I g
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In what state?
In mine you can pay $500 and not fill out a disclosure form or pay it and claim the disclosure is possibly wrong. Nearly all houses are sold that way. Since $500 is not a lot to avoid liability on the property. At the time that law was passed $500 was a lot of money. Today it is not.
At least you can try to sue a bank. In many cases suing a previous homeowner is nearly pointless. They may not have the money to pay a judgement and you may not even be able to find them.
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are you talking about buying seller insurance? If so, the buyer is still protected here, the seller just passes on the liability. Pretty sure those require an inspection to be done too by the seller, or insurance company.
Also, there are state and federal disclosure rules, lead based paint would be a federal disclosure applicable to all states.
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No, I am talking about disclosure.
NY state allows you to pay $500 to the buyer and not do a state disclosure. Federal ones still do apply.
http://rmfpc.com/bye-bye-buyer-beware-states-new-disclosure-law-on-property-sales-shifts-burden-to-sellers/ [rmfpc.com]
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I am so glad I don't like in New York anymore, we don't have that big gapping loophole in ours:
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/home-sellers-colorado-your-disclosure-obligations.html [nolo.com]
I guess the $500 can be seen as a red flag when purchasing, If was a buyer in NY I would ask for the disclosure, not the $500. The $500 seems like its to cover the BUYER's inspection expense, but if the buyer backs out after the inspection, the seller won't be crediting them the $500, which makes me thing this law was wr
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I did.
The simple fact is realtors motives do not line up with the buyer. A realtor wants you to buy any house as soon as possible. That way they spend the least amount of time for the commission. People do not turn over houses fast enough for it to be that common to use the same realtor again.
Again more liability on their part would help line up their motivations.
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Re:Recruiter Commision (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep certainly had the Agencies cut taken off my agreed salary for three months before (I did complain). No mention of what Language/ALM they work with. Given that I know hundreds of Devs (Some of whom already live in commuting distance) it would be nice to know what skills they are looking for.
huh!?!
I've worked with recruiters for years, in Chicago, New York, and London to name just three places. I've never, ever, had my pay docked because of the recruiter's fee. Never. And every job I've had beyond the first out of college has been through a recruiter (and they've all been excellent jobs, on both sides of the pond).
The employer should always pay the recruiter's fee. You as an employee/candidate should never see the fee, probably won't know what the fee was, and shouldn't necessarily even be aware of the fee (other than in the most hypothetical sense).
Having your salary docked for three months...that's just crazy. The only instance I know of where that's the norm is with talent agents in the media...a journalist I know at a New York radio station pays n% of his salary to his talent agent, but that's an entirely different can of worms. In technical recruiting, that should never happen. If your employer docked you, I'd say your employer is more than a little suspect and I'd get your CV/resume out. If your recruiter is collecting from you, then you've been suckered into the wrong kind of recruiter.
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The only instance I know of where that's the norm is with talent agents in the media...a journalist I know at a New York radio station pays n% of his salary to his talent agent,
Which is sensible, assuming it is this journalist who asked the agent to get him work. So the talent agent provides their service to the journalist - and the journalist pays. This in contrast to when a company asks a recruiter to recruit someone for them, in that case the recruiter provides the service to the company, and the company pays.
In case of your friend the recruiters fee is definitely included in the salary he asks, if he wants to make say $1,000 and the fee is 20%, he'd ask $1,250. So that after t
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The recruiter getting 20-25% of the employee's annual salary matches my experience, from both sides. Referral bonuses of $30,000 is unheard: I've seen plenty of referral bonuses offered of $500 to $1000 in the last year for work involving six figure salaries, including contracting work of more than six months duration.
Both Cambridge, MA and Dublin, Ireland are very expensive places to live with some of the highest developer salaries I've seen offered. My colleagues and I have gotten recruiting calls for b
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We just doubled our internal recruiting bonus at work. Nothing like 30K but still, doubled.
We find that people who are internally recruited have better retention rates and are less likely to be 'misrepresenting themselves' then candidates from recruiters, generally speaking.
Min
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You've never heard of a dev earning $120,000 then either?
Please Don't Beat the Free Puppies (Score:4, Funny)
I don't think companies should be free to beat puppies in order to convince employees to join their company. I mean, that's like extortion, "If you don't scrum with us, we'll beat these puppies senseless!"
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I don't think companies should be free to beat puppies in order to convince employees to join their company. I mean, that's like extortion, "If you don't scrum with us, we'll beat these puppies senseless!"
So the question becomes "Are you willing to sacrifice yourself in place of the puppies?"
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Part of the $150k they pay you for is the office survival skills where you know to steal the good chairs from the nice conference rooms for your desk. When they complain, if they do, you point out that your crappy broken chair is an OSHA issue and that really, you sit in your desk chair longer per day than anyone that sits in that conference room chair.
If I refer myself (Score:5, Funny)
Can I get $30k *and* the job?
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Can I get $30k *and* the job?
What you need to do is find someone else to refer you.
Have your lawyer write up a contract that they will pay you 95% of the referral fee; and/or any amounts paid to them by the company or as a result of you being hired, and that also prohibits them from disclosing the details of the deal, or that there was a deal, or that there was any reason for referring you other than they had evaluated your work in the past.
In exchange, you will allow them to refer you, and you w
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And, who pays the taxes on the $30k?
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He writes code to do that silly math for him.
Re:If I refer myself (Score:4, Informative)
Can I get $30k *and* the job?
While you may have been joking, that was not at all uncommon during the dot com boom. You'd basically negotiate the recruiter's fees into the signing bonus and grab $60-$80k in signing bonuses. If you were a particularly shrewd negotiator, you'd get 1/3 up front, the second 1/3 after 90 days or something and the rest at 6 months.
Those were the days ...
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Well, If they usually pay recruiters, I don't see anything wrong with this. When my friend bought his last house, he didn't use a real estate agent. So very early in the negotiations, he basically dropped the price of the house by 2.5%, because the commission on a house is usually 5% split between the agent of the seller and the buyer, and it's paid by the seller. If they don't have to pay that half of the commission to the other real estate agent, it should be subtracted from the price of the house. Same thing goes here. If the company usually pays $10,000 to a recruiter, and you manage to find the company yourself, the company should give you a $10,000 signing bonus.
Interesting your friend was able to do that -- generally its a 5% commission, which the seller's agent splits with the buyer's agent. Usually if there is no buyers agent, the seller's agent keeps all of it. (Which is why, as your friend did, its best to push on it... its possible the seller in that case did drop the price 2.5% and still got stuck paying their agent the 5%!)
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That is probably correct. Although in my common experience in several U.S. states, it is usually 6%.
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They're called signing bonuses. Happens all the time in the big IT markets (in Cali, Mass, NY...)
If you're actually good, take a job in one of the big cities that house the top employers (even if you don't take a job with them...companies in the area have to compete somehow), and don't get a sign on bonus, you're negotiating wrong (or you're not as good as you think you are).
Referral bonuses ? Seen them offered. (Score:2)
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Referral "bonuses" (Score:2)
Maybe they've loaded the contractual clauses with fine print to help them avoid paying out $30k. Maybe the only bonus is $30k, which might be cheaper than any other headhunter's usual contract. Someone at HubSpot should think about contracting out to Bengaluru or Mumbai.
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Of course (Score:2, Informative)
The conclusion repeatedly reached by academic researchers in software engineering is that there is an 'order of magnitude' difference among good and mediocre developers, and good developers are perenially in short supply.
So the answer is yes, it's absolutely worth the money.
Re:Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Definition of mediocre, competent IS much better (Score:2)
Which is true by definition:
me·di·o·cre [mee-dee-oh-ker]
adjective
1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; n
Indeed, the bulk of the grunts are "of only ordinary or moderate quality". "The bulk of" and "ordinary" mean pretty much the same thing, don't they?
The mediocre generally know enough to do the task, badly. They screw things up pretty badly by making it "work" j
Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (Score:5, Interesting)
What they end up with is sometimes called "predictable mediocrity". Just like having a mechanical assembly line, you'll have more control, easier planning and a predictable quality, at the expense of flexibility, innovation, sometimes cost, and excellence (your quality will be more predictable but I've rarely seen the average go up or even remain the same). What is also does is breed excellence out of the workplace: experts will be too expensive, they will not enjoy the nature of the work, and you will find it hard to offer a viable career path to talented workers. So I expect real talent to become even scarcer and more expensive.
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Not that I am that excellent but I am good enough and I see few of those better than me suffering from insults from below (refuse to improve the product and then scolding because somebody else did etc) all the time as well as from (hopefully only moderate) idiocy of management stuff too.
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I disagree that good employees are scarce. The fundamentals of the marketplace just don't bear it out:
1. There are more unemployed admins, developers, project managers, architects, etc than there were about 6 years ago.
2. There are more H1B visas than ever before, so if there weren't talented Americans there are certainly enough talented foreigners out there.
Now, is it true that the majority of those who are unemployed are probably not that good? Yes. But a few of them likely are really good, and offering a
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from my POV (bay area) the unemployed engineers _are_ quite good. they tend to be older and more expensive (and US born); all of which the companies do NOT want anymore.
there's tons of talent out there waiting to be hired.
problem is, companies are now 'broken' and spoiled by the greed of h1b servants. getting hired as an older US citizen is near impossible these days. ask me - I know this first-hand.
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The older part is really the depressing thing: some of the best people I've ever been involved in hiring were in their 50's or 60's.
Learning to do more in 8 than most do in 16? (Score:3)
How many times have you had to completely rewrite someone else's code, or spent so much time on it that you might as have rewritten it? The "typical" developer creates enough future problems by poorly thought out systems that their net productivity approaches zero. It's not th
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Personally a big red flag for me is when a dev says "I have to completely rewrite this persons code."
Not saying it doesn't happen, but a decent developer should be able to deal with other peoples work.
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Sometimes you realize that the long-term maintainability of the re-write is worth it though. Especially if the original is confusing or buggy.
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Sometimes... but rarely. Usually (not always) if it is that bad it won't be accepted in the first place. Software is the only system that gets better with time and use. Rewriting from scratch (as opposed to an intelligent refactor) totally negates that, not to mention flushed a companies investment in developing it right down the toilet (not that I really care about that).
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Software is the only system that gets better with time and use.
Are you sure you're a real e developer? This statement is totally wrong.
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Software is the only system that gets better with time and use.
Are you sure you're a real e developer? This statement is totally wrong.
I think it is more accurate to say most production code becomes less buggy with time and use. But it also becomes less maintainable with time and use. It is a difficult balancing act to determine when you should continue with stable code that is hard to change, or risk decreasing stability to improve your ability to add new features.
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You ought to consider what the developers of Doom and Quake said, which is that you shouldn't get too attached to existing code. If you want the best code, you should throw everything away and start over, repeatedly.
Lest you think that rule of thumb can only apply when you need lots of optimization, and most code is hastily written garbage that is only worked on until it is barely good enough to do the job and doesn't need any more work than that, you ought to think about design. Hastily written is also
Where do you work that bad code isn't accepted? (Score:2)
I thought I worked at such a company once, where I was the one deciding what was accepted and what was not (as well as doing most of the software architecture).
Over time, I had to work on code I'd approved or even written 5-10 years before. I'd learned enough then to know that what I once thought was good was actually pretty awful.
That said, while all of the COMPANIES I know produce some pretty gnarly code, I'v
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Sometimes... but rarely. Usually (not always) if it is that bad it won't be accepted in the first place. Software is the only system that gets better with time and use. Rewriting from scratch (as opposed to an intelligent refactor) totally negates that, not to mention flushed a companies investment in developing it right down the toilet (not that I really care about that).
It happens quite frequently where i work that lazy ex-developers will code exactly to the specification given, hardcoding bits of information that should be a configuration option or a lookup, tying it so completely to the present implementation that to add another customer onto the product requires completely changing the code. I have rewritten dozens of applications at my company because the applications were so strictly hardcoded to certain situations that the original developers couldn't figure out how
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Yes, "have to" is different from "most efficient" (Score:2)
> Not saying it doesn't happen, but a decent developer should be able to deal with other peoples work.
Indeed there is a big difference between "I have to" (because I don't understand the pattern or idioms) versus "It would be best to rewrite" (because the architecture or data structures are wrong).
Atzanteol mentioned another common case "if the original is confusing or buggy" and in that case a refac
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Often dealing with is knowing when to discard.
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>> Once the 20 something's of today start to get married and have kids in a few years watch all the hot shots vanish and calls for family friendly workplaces to start up again.
Oh there are always freshly minted grads to exploit... and former 20 something hotshots to lay off.
Hey what'd those all nighters getcha? A nice fat pink slip!
Re: Good employees are scarce and may get scarcer (Score:2)
one time my apartment complex gave me $50 (Score:5, Funny)
for referring my buddy dave.
turns out dave was doing a shake-n-bake meth lab in the back of his pickup. one night it exploded right there in the parking lot. a huge fireball lit the sky. my next door neighbor, doreen, thought iit was jesus come back for the rapture.
anyways. they wanted the $50 back. i said, i already spent it. i took the ex-inlaw's to the Golden Corral buffet, and at ten dollars a head, well, that money is clean gone.
they said, damnit, that sumbitch dave blew a hole in the parking lot.
i said no problem. i know a guy, ronnie earl, who works on the pothole truck for the city. ronnie knew how to get the hole fixed. he filed a pothole report but he used the name of his rich uncle as the report filer. his uncle, you see, owns 5 chevrolet dealerships and is the richest sumbitch this side of caw valley. (we used to call it squaw valley, until my brother bobby went and married that indian girl... it wouldnt be nice to call it that no more)
anyways. when it comes to referrals, you better get yourself some kinda papers saying they cant get it back if you accidentally misjudge someone's character. like ol' shake-and-bake dave.
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Re:one time my apartment complex gave me $50 (Score:4, Funny)
My KINGDOM for some mod-points!
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Dave?
Dave's not here!
Stay away (Score:5, Interesting)
In my experience, they offer a large referral bonus when they have a bad reputation. The bonus is designed to bribe at least 1 person to say good things about them.
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Maybe it could be a good approach for someone like me who has no reputation. It would be a fair price to pay for being able to stay off social media.
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Usually places like that just engender distrust between employees, anger, resentment... a toxic place to work is just that. People there end up having bad things to say about you, and new employers know they have problems with people that they've hired from there in the past. Stay away imo. The good employers, the ones you want to work for, usually don't even have to put up want adds... they have so many pending applications all the time they never need to announce they are hiring. My companies somewhere in
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In my experience, they offer a large referral bonus when they have a bad reputation. The bonus is designed to bribe at least 1 person to say good things about them.
well
another thing is, if you're buying services from them, they're at least 30 000$ per year overpriced.
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Please share. For some reason it's perfectly ok to trash a bad employee, but finding information about a bad employer is difficult.
Great bonus... have fun collecting (Score:5, Informative)
I worked for a place that had a great referral bonus (cough cough... BAE Systems... cough). Operation Eagle Eye they called it.
Well I found a developer that fit all the criteria. Filled out the paper work, got him interviewed and hired.... then all of a sudden email went quiet on the issue. Repeated emails to HR went unanswered. So finally I went down there in person to ask about the referral bonus. We'll get back to you. I got back to them (in person). Excuses: oh this facility doesn't participate in that program (so I went into the hall and pulled the poster off the wall and showed it to the HR rep). Oh your hire doesn't fulfill the requirements (so I got the requirements off the intranet site and checked them off). Oh that's right we didn't end up hiring him (he sits in the office next to mine). Finally I subtlety hinted that I would quit.
They then sent me half the advertised bonus... four months after I was supposed to get it... and withheld over half of it in taxes AND deducted my 401K percentage contribution from it (oh sorry that was an error by finance we can cut you a new check on 60 days).
So. Beware if this crap.
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You think that sucks, you should see what happened to the people your products were used on.
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Have any of BAE systems products ever actually been used? I tended to think they were in the business of producing ships, planes and vehicles that don't actually have any relevance in the modern world and were mostly just for show and profit like the F35 that barely even flies, the dogfighting Eurofighter for all that air combat we don't have nowadays and the Type 45 destroyers that don't actually have any weapons yet.
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Their missiles and drones do get used...but yeah those fighters and ships are all for the theoretical WW2-style WW3. A Eurofighter was used to escort down a plane recently.
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Don't confuse BAE Systems Plc (UK) with BAE Systems Inc (US).
While Inc is owned by Plc, they are in effect totally different companies.
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Some got their picture taken from above, and some avoided IED's. Horrible, I know.
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Meanwhile, those of us working for reputable companies have had no trouble getting the referral bonuses for people we've recommended.
Oh, wait... "inbound marketing company" Yeah, you may have a point.
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They then sent me half the advertised bonus... four months after I was supposed to get it... and withheld over half of it in taxes AND deducted my 401K percentage contribution from it (oh sorry that was an error by finance we can cut you a new check on 60 days).
Well, the rest of it is crap, as is giving you half the bonus, but the taxes are just reality and it's hard to see why the company would intentionally misdirect the cash to your 401K. It's not like they get any benefit from doing that.
My experience at IBM was that I got paid promptly and in full -- though taxes took a big bite, much of which I got back on my tax return. I expect the same would be true of my current employer (Google), but I haven't yet managed to get a referral hired.
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>>Well, the rest of it is crap, as is giving you half the bonus, but the taxes are just reality and it's hard to see why the company would intentionally misdirect the cash to your 401K. It's not like they get any benefit from doing that.
1) they admitted they over withheld taxes, even taking into account additional withholding for bonus pay
2) 401K is a stated coporate policy to not withhold that from bonus pay
The upshot is that they wanted as little $ in my pocket as possible. While it sounds petty an
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There was a match there, but it was not applied to bonuses.
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I expect the same would be true of my current employer (Google), but I haven't yet managed to get a referral hired.
I'm sure there are plenty of people here that would love to help you out with that.
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It's because it's one of those things that companies advertise but never actually plan on having to do in practice, so they have no process or procedure in place as to how to file in the accounts that you just gave someone $5k for a referral and admin staff being admin staff figure rather than deal what is to them a relatively complex problem compared to the simple word processing they normally do prefer to make up excuses as to why you can't have it.
I've actually seem companies like this with other policie
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I've never personally gotten a referral bonus, but I've been the reason someone else was supposed to get a bonus several times.
In my experience, the bonuses have not been that large - $500 has been the 'standard' new-hire bonus. Twice it was with smaller companies, once with an international corp. The international corp paid out but the smaller companies, lacking HR processes, shorted or delayed the payouts.
I've been shorted my "stay 6 months and get a bonus/raise" as well, even when it's been in writing. B
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Actually, I don't work for them any more. I left and went to work for NASA.
We were a small shop that created very stabilized extremely high definition airborne and spaceborne cameras for NASA, NOAA, and ESA... until BAE came along and bought us out. Then, DOD was the main (not only) customer. But nice try at clumping anyone that works for a company like BAE together as part of the evil empire. I also know some folks who work for Northrup Grumman... the run the main data center for Medicade. Are they al
Side Track (Score:2)
So.. (Score:2)
You find three people in a year, and then you have to do nothing else?
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Five, if you live on a coast.
Should be (Score:2)
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Sadly, I think that is their job.
they may get some recruiter BS and or fake people (Score:2)
they may get some recruiter BS and or fake people / resume padding.
Some recruiters do edit people resumes / pad them out.
Not so good (Score:5, Interesting)
I left a great job for a lousy one because of a former co-worker at the new place who was singing the new companies praises -- just to get the referral bonus.
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>> 30k so you can accept a 300k project... that is pretty easy.
Yes, it is easy: don't take the project. 10% (basically your profit) burned just to fill a seat. Hopefully you won't ever become a CFO.
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Oh look a sandy mangina! I am delusional btw about the 10%... many profit margins are slimmer than that.
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One can add many caveats as to why loosing money is worth it in the long run. But the reason given above is not one of them.