Does Relying On an IDE Make You a Bad Programmer? 627
itwbennett writes "Writing about his career decisions, programming language choices, and regrets, Rob Conery says that as a .NET developer he became more reliant on an IDE than he would have with PHP. Blogger, and .NET developer, Matthew Mombrea picks up the thread, coming to the defense of IDEs (Visual Studio in particular). Mombrea argues that 'being a good developer isn't about memorizing the language specific calls, it's about knowing the available ways to solve a problem and solving it using the best technique or tools as you can.' Does using an IDE make you lazy with the language? Would you be better off programming with Notepad?"
No (Score:3, Insightful)
It's easier to learn the language when assisted by an IDE. Qt Creator is my favorite, followed by NetBeans.
Re:No (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't this be more of what the API has available? IDE's don't really help you learn the language, beyond semantics, but they are extremely helpful with providing contextual information about API calls.
Re: No (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. This is the way they teach the basics of the language you learn in school. This is why you also get tested on the basics of a language like variables, datatypes, and polymorphism.
If you never learned the basics ie foundations of programming, you will never use these fundamentals in any of that IDEs you use. I've seen it happen, somebody hasn't learned how to properly separate code functionally and it's all throwing together. They would do this in notepad or they would do it in eclipse or visual studio.
Your knowledge, skill, and experience make you the type of programmer you are. Good or bad.
Re: No (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, I don't think what they aid with at all is learning the language (beyond perhaps hovering over core statements like for loops and the like to give you basic syntax). What they do aid with is familiarizing yourself with libraries, but before you delve too far into libraries in any language, you should understand the language itself.
Re: (Score:3)
I don't think so. An IDE is not supposed to help you discover a language or a framework, but rather provide you with a workflow that makes you as productive as possible.
Re: No (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think so. An IDE is not supposed to help you discover a language or a framework, but rather provide you with a workflow that makes you as productive as possible.
In fact, I've found that trying to learn a language or framework via an IDE can be a very bad thing indeed.
First, because you don't really learn how the language/framework works, you learn how the IDE's generators and editors work. And frequently automated code generators create some really awful, unnatural code, because they're using one-size-fits-all models rather than intelligence.
Secondly, because even with one-size-fits-all, there are a lot of features and capabilities in most languages/frameworks that won't be supported. And when someone who's used to having the IDE do all the work tries to go in and manually remedy the situation, the results can be horrible.
An IDE in the hands of people who know what they're doing can be a tremendous productivity aid.
An IDE in the hands of cheap untrained monkeys hired because management thought that the IDE could replace experience, skill, and talent is disaster on the hoof.
You can tell which is which by swapping out the IDE with Windows Notepad. The skilled people will slow down and grumble about having to do everything the hard way. The monkeys will sit around idly weeping, because without the crutch that an IDE affords, they don't know what to do.
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
Use something like Resharper in Visual Studio and you can learn a lot about the language, as it offers loads of little "this code block can be refactored this way for this reason" hints - shows you just what can be done and why.
Re:No (Score:5, Funny)
... it offers loads of little "this code block can be refactored this way for this reason" hints - shows you just what can be done and why.
Oh good -- I was worried if and when Clippy would find work again, what with the husband and little staples to feed.
Re: (Score:3)
... it offers loads of little "this code block can be refactored this way for this reason" hints - shows you just what can be done and why.
Oh good -- I was worried if and when Clippy would find work again, what with the husband and little staples to feed.
Wait, Clippy is a chick?
Re: (Score:3)
IDEs can help learn language (Score:4, Informative)
in XCode the extensive LLVM warnings can reveal a lot of issues that pertain to incorrect usage of the computer language, not just the APIs.
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Re: (Score:3)
"That was what drove me nuts about ruby on rails... the constant assertion that it was all so "intuitive" that you could just type in what you expected to work, and it would work by magic."
I don't know who was asserting that. I've been using it constantly for 8 years and I don't know anybody who asserts that.
But be that as it may: please don't think this is a criticism. It isn't about you, but just in general about the subject you brought up.
First is: many people seem to be under the impression that Ruby on Rails is a "language" for web development, something like what PHP was designed to be. Not so. The language is Ruby. Rails is just a web framework built on top of Ruby. They are not
Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, "learning the language" is the one time that an IDE is not the best choice. That's the time you should be trotting out Notepad and developing the skills and familiarity with the language itself.
Once you've mastered the language, the IDE serves as your reference tool, your refactoring tool, your formatting tool, your reading tool, your analysis tool, and even your testing tool. It makes simple things simpler, which is too simple for someone who doesn't understand the original simplicity.
A good IDE is a speed enhancer for good programmers. An IDE does not make a bad programmer become a good programmer.
Look at it this way: would you give a toddler a pair of crutches in order to teach him to walk?
Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at it this way: would you give a toddler a pair of crutches in order to teach him to walk?
That is an astonishingly bad analogy given the popularity of toddler walkers [amazon.com] and the fact that every child while learning to walk starts buy pulling themselves up next to something and scooting along it's length.
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at it this way: would you give a toddler a pair of crutches in order to teach him to walk?
That is an astonishingly bad analogy given the popularity of toddler walkers [amazon.com] and the fact that every child while learning to walk starts buy pulling themselves up next to something and scooting along it's length.
Or maybe it's a really good analogy, just a bad argument. That sounds more like it to me.
Re:No (Score:5, Informative)
I don't have experience where 100% of what I do is programming, but at times, up to 25 or 30 pct of job was coding, and without an IDE I'd be lost. I can never remember any of the semantics of a given language (and I only use VBA and Python), but I do remember roughly what a language can do and an IDE makes it a lot easier for me to find the exact wording of a call, capitalization, etc.
I'd be miserable in notepad, getting hung up on typos, or an extra space that gums up indentation. IDEs allow a lot of folks like me who don't program full time to be able to code useful algos when we need them and walk away, not worrying about the time it takes to re-familiarize myself with a language.
Please Stop. (Score:5, Insightful)
99% of the time if you hear someone questioning the utility of using an IDE, notepad was never in the running as a serious option to begin with. Just stop it. Don't say it's name. Notepad is a 24 year old joke stuck in the 90s feature-wise. The runners are programs like Sublime Text, BBedit, Text Wrangler, gedit, Jedit, notepad++, or even vim.
Just because someone tells you that you should drive your car less doesn't mean they are forcing you to walk everywhere you go on your feet. You can bike. You can ride your motorcycle. You can ride the bus. You can ride an electric bycycle. You can rollerblade. You can ride in someone else's car. You can ride the train. You can fly in a plane.
Anyone mentioning Notepad seriously in their comments on this article has no knowledge of what a proper text editor is and have an apathy to find out so they can actually contibute meaningfully to the conversation.
Re:Please Stop. (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone mentioning Notepad seriously in their comments on this article has no knowledge of what a proper text editor is and have an apathy to find out so they can actually contibute meaningfully to the conversation.
There's a difference between a text editor (and proper or not, Notepad is one) and a code editor.
IDEs like Eclipse have multiple code editors for different uses such as Java, C, SQL, Python and so forth. In the case of Eclipse, they're usually plugin options.
Emacs provides code editors but calls them "modes".
The point is, that a text editor can do generic text, but if you want to type in API calls and generic code, you have to type it all in yourself. A code editor is sensitive to the desired product and can suggest auto-completions for API calls, plug in boilerplate and the like. Back in the Bad Old Days, all we had to create code with was text editors and a stack of manuals printed on processed dead trees. And we liked it. At least until IDEs came along and we liked that better.
Then there are code "wizards", which are another species of skunk entirely.
Relying on an IDE doesn't make you a bad programmer. But if you are a bad programmer, you don't just rely on an IDE, you depend on it.
Re: (Score:3)
Some of my first programming in 1981 was on an IDE, but then they went away and it was just plain old editors for awhile. When IDEs came back they were crufty animals that were worse in every way compared to good editors like emacs, vi, TPU, etc. But they were used on systems where an IDE made sense: no built in compilers, no built in text editors, no built in searching programs, no built in shell, etc. The problem though is that the IDEs were jealous, they wanted to do everything and refused to work wit
Re:Please Stop. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
"I think the point was that there's something to be learned from writing code in an editor that doesn't offer any handholding whatsoever. I don't think anyone is advocating doing this in production scenarios."
Depends on what you mean by "handholding".
Editors like Sublime Text and TextMate have macros and the like, but they are a far cry from an "IDE" in the common sense of the term (like Visual Studio for example). Generally speaking, they might have syntax highlighting, auto-indent, global search etc. but they are still just editors, not even close to IDEs. And millions of people use them for coding professionally every day.
Re:No (Score:5, Informative)
Then it seems you do remember something about the language's semantics. Maybe it's the details of syntax you're forgetting?
Re: (Score:3)
Is the IDE a pair of crutches, or the (massive, in neurologically unimpaired humans) amount of abstraction handled transparently and continually for you? Nobody walks by reading raw values from their inner ear and various sensory neurons and then writing values to individual muscle groups... Does that count as analogous to having an IDE remind you about standard library functions?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Learning the language with a notepad is IMO a really bad idea. I will give an analogy that I think is appropriate.
I am renovating our houses. In the past you would use a hammer and nail to assemble the wood. These days you don't. You use a cordless power drill with screws, and glue. I was talking to my sister and in Ecuador they do as well as their areas are earthquake prone.
My point here is, would you teach somebody to build a house with hammer and nails? Answer no, because it is a passe art. Now before yo
Re:No (Score:5, Funny)
Comparing Notepad to vim or emacs is like comparing Mayim Bialik to Kaley Cuoco.
Re:No (Score:4, Funny)
She's the one on the show with Mayim Bialik.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Perhaps knowing w
Re: No (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, using bad analogies is like cutting a tree down with a fish.
Re:No (Score:5, Interesting)
Back in the 80's I wrote a lot of code for my Commodore 64 on paper which I would type in later when the computer was available to me. I was in college a few years ago and was required to take a class on Visual Basic. Everyone is class was new to programming or learned with a fancy IDE. We had a test where we had to write a few routines on paper for a test.
Most students had no idea how to form a line of Visual Basic code. They would just start to type the statement and let IntelliSense give them the proper parameter list and then they would just fill in the blanks. This means they were lazy on if a statement used : or ; or if a variable was one-counter or one_counter or OneCounter. It was a disaster. out of 60 students I was the only one who passed that part of the test.
It is not that I am against IDEs. But having worked without them, and having to do the edit-compile-execute-debug loop, I conceptually understand what the IDE is doing for me. I have done the heavy lifting and I appreciate what the IDE does.
The best way to learn what the language can do, is to set down with a manual that has all of the commands and with simple examples, and read it whenever you are in the bathroom. It is much less boring reading something like this when the only competition is staring at the floor.
Re: (Score:3)
Troll food (Score:4, Informative)
You sound like someone who tried it once, found it was different to the QT you love and gave up. If you want a job coding you would be wise to explore it a bit deeper than you have. Not suggesting you give up QT but in my (considerable) experience you often don't get a choice of IDE when you take up a programming job. For example: The large code base I currently manage and help maintain is cross-platform C/C++ which aside from running on win32/64 and windows itanium, is also expected to build and run on various flavours of linux, sun, hp, and aix. I'm not going to change all my build scripts just so the new guy can build a private development version with QT, nor will I pay for a commercial QT license when the department already has an MSDN subscription that comes with the defacto industry standard IDE for windows.
Yes (Score:5, Funny)
Real programmers use butterflies. [xkcd.com]
Yes it does. (Score:2, Informative)
I say this knowing next to nothing about programming. So, I might be incorrect.
Re: (Score:3)
No... (Score:5, Insightful)
It makes you a bad programmer in the same way that using an automated spell checker on your novel makes you a bad writer.
i.e. not at all.
Re:No... (Score:5, Insightful)
I would argue that it's more like relying on Word's grammar checker. The suggested way may be technically correct, but you should still know when the IDE isn't doing it the right or best way. And sometimes something is correct in the local context but incorrect in a larger context.
Re:No... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No... (Score:5, Funny)
BTW: There was some research done a while back that did show that using spell and grammar checkers improved the bad english-skills people, but actually made the people who were already good english-skills people worse!
That's it, blame the spelling and grammar checkers...
Does using a saw make you a bad carpenter? (Score:2, Insightful)
See subject.
Re:Does using a saw make you a bad carpenter? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're a bad carpenter, I suppose a powerful saw could make you a worse one. At least it allows you to make a bigger mess.
I've been a programmer for over thirty years now. When I started out, programming was about figuring out how to do things. Now it's much more about figuring out how to get someone else's code to do something. This shift was probably inevitable, as we try to get systems to do more and more. Very few of us have the luxury of being able to get away with just reading section 2 and 3 of the Unix manual; now we need to work with frameworks.
It's not like back in the day when you could code your own alternative to qsort as long as it worked; working with a framework's facilities is mandatory if you want the framework to do all the magical under-the-cover things it is supposed to do. We used to read the Unix manuals cover to cover from section 1 (commands) to section 7 (special files). Compilation and linking takes forever on a CPU running in the single digit MHz range, so we had plenty of time on our hands. That small but complete knowledge set, plus emacs, and we were cooking with gas.
These days you'd need to have loads more *static* knowledge to really know the APIs you're working with.So having things like pop-up parameter entry and a manual for the framework integrated into the IDE is nice.
But for me, the thing that finally got me away from emacsfor good was refactoring support in IDEs. And that's where the power saw analogy comes in. Refactoring is powerful, but it's also possible to drop down the refactoring rabbit hole and waste a lot of time frobbing around with the code. Refactoring is part of a suite of best practices that have to be implemented together (including source control, unit testing and project management). A clumsy and careless programmer can do a lot more damage with a powerful IDE, a skilled programmer can get more done.
It takes a lot more discipline, knowledge (of the know-how variety), and professionalism to be a good programmer these days. Back in the day there were very good programmers, and *terrible* programmers, and not much in between. These days there are more programming jobs than there are people gifted at programming, so what you see is a lot of mediocrity. Consequently all those powerful tools are neither a panacea nor a plague. Mediocre programmers will produce mediocre results no matter what they use.
Re: (Score:3)
If you're a bad carpenter, I suppose a powerful saw could make you a worse one. At least it allows you to make a bigger mess.
This is exactly right. When Autocomplete first came out, I thought, "wow, this is cool, it makes it easier to find functions in the code." Then it dawned on me that someday people would write code that is impossible to understand without Autocomplete.
And that day is now. If your code is not understandable without Autocomplete, or using an IDE, then you are a mediocre programmer. You don't know how to organize your code cleanly, so work on that and improve.
does relying on a hammer make you a bad carpenter? (Score:2, Insightful)
Its a tool. Used appropriately you're fine.
Re: (Score:2)
Just exactly how would one use it inappropriately? Inquiring minds must know.
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Hammering in a screw? :-)
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Using it to help you do a task you cannot do without it.
I.E. when the IDE fails to help you can you still do the job?
I'd liken it to a surgery robot. I as a non-medically trained person should not assume this will let me perform surgeries.
But it may help a skilled surgeon quite well but he can take over if the robot crashes where as I cannot.
Sadly I see most using the IDE as a normal person trying to code like a developer.....
Personally I use a combination of Vim+Nerdtree+tagbar for C/C++/Python and eclipse
IDEs are good. UI builders are bad. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:IDEs are good. UI builders are bad. (Score:4, Insightful)
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That was the biggest thing I got out of switching to an IDE. I don't know why but I started writing java in ultraedit (have moved on to sublime text, good stuff) for a long while, but I finally got to the point where I had to refactor a mid sized program and finally got everything going in eclipse.
I guess I've always been a bit scared of older IDEs and what they might change or move around if I don't know what all the buttons are, but I guess now a days they are great. The refactoring is huge, it feels muc
Re: (Score:2)
I would say that's true in particular for UI builders that produce code. I find UI builders that produce non-code tend to be better. Glade for GTK+ produces XML for example, just as if you had written it yourself. You can edit it if you want to, or write the XML from scratch and open it up in Glade if you want to fix something visually.
Xcode/Gnustep has an interesting approach which is worth mentioning. The UI builder does not work like a traditional UI builder, instead you work directly with the actual obj
Re: (Score:2)
focused too much on graphical UI builders that produced brittle, often subtly buggy UIs
That's funny, back in the day UI libraries were brittle, often subtly buggy. See also: every dialog box form ever, when you try to use it on a Netbook with a 600 pixel high screen and the UI fails to implement some form of scrolling.
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IDEs with any form of wizard for "creating stuff" potentially take away the underlying understanding that a programmer might use to come up with something better.
But, for code navigation, a good IDE is totally indispensable, particularly with large codebases of someone else's code. What could be more useful than hovering your mouse pointer over a structure variable and having a little window show you how it was declared and what members it has? Or telling you all the places the current function is called fr
Walk before you can run code (Score:5, Funny)
I remember the days when all real programmers needed was a magnetized pin and a steady hand *puffs pipe*
Re: (Score:2)
No, no, no! This is Slashdot, we need a car analogy:
Does relying on pre-made rubber tires make you a bad driver?
Re: (Score:2)
No, no, no! This is Slashdot, we need a car analogy:
Does relying on pre-made rubber tires make you a bad driver?
No, but it does make you a BAD mechanic.. You mean you don't make your OWN tires, mount them with a crow bar, balance them by spinning them on your finger using lead you smelted yourself? Shesh!
No (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No (Score:5, Interesting)
I think a better analogy is that an IDE to a developer is more like a CNC machine to a carpenter.
It's possible that a CNC machine can allow an experienced carpenter to do his work fast and efficiently.
But for an unskilled carpenter, I see two possibilities:
- the carpenter may limit his designs to what the CNC machine can make (no curved wood objects for one example)
- the fundamentals of carpentry might be ignored (like the properties of natural wood, growth, shrinkage)
In the context of an IDE maybe like:
- only build on one platform
- only create products the IDE way (maybe creating "apps" instead of minimal command line tools or OS internal things)
- allow the developer to ignore corner cases that are abstracted away with IDEs (memory management? interrupts?)
Programming is not about rote memorization (Score:5, Insightful)
Look, it's nice when you are well versed enough in a language to not have to lookup method/function names, nor their arguments. But let's face it, it's hardly the mark of an amazing programmer to have a photographic memory.
Programmers solve problems. Being able to understand the problem well enough to develop a solution for it is far more important a skill. Writing well documented code using a uniform style further boosts the quality of the output by helping make it maintainable.
An IDE is, at worst, neutral in this regard, if not beneficial for assisting in the last point.
Re:Programming is not about rote memorization (Score:4, Insightful)
Just because your degree was memorized, doesn't make memorization an objective good.
If I can be as productive (or more) then a memorizer by using autocomplete (and knowing more or less what the necessary function calls are if not the operand order) then I've just saved the time used in memorization. Also the autocomplete guy will be productive while the memorizer is still hammering soon to be obsolete information into his brain.
Henry Ford Sr used to ask prospective engineering hires trivial technical information. If they knew the answer he wouldn't hire them, if they told him where to look it up he did.
Re: (Score:2)
Anecdote (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anecdote (Score:5, Insightful)
I realize how much time I wasted trying to debug things with many calls to system.out.println
The point of your university course was not to maximize your output productivity, but to teach you how to program.
For example --
For my first calculus course in university I had to manually evaluate derivatives and integrals. Now that I know how to use Maple, and matlab, and R I realize how much time I wasted.
Right?
Well, sure, but the goal of the calculus course was to teach me the math, with no eye whatsoever toward generating the answers as quickly as possible.
Writing code manually in a text file, compiling it to object, linking it to an executable, and debugging it with println teaches you how things work under the hood. Picking up an IDE later on lets you leverage all the power that tool gives you, but still, in the back of your head, you know what's going on. That's valuable.
While the IDE can be a little overwhelming at first, programming without a proper step-through debugger is painful.
Ironically, a debugger "originally" is a separate thing, you can attach it to a running process, load a symbol table, set breakpoints etc. Its great that they are part of IDEs, but this invaluable skill of working with a debugger separately is frequently overlooked.
you must be kidding (Score:2)
Yes.
"Would you be better off programming with Notepad?"
Um, hell no. If you have to ask... Studio and other IDE's make me more productive. That's their job. If I had to fish for declarations of variables every minute and remember all the intricacies of the language, I would, well, be living in the 70's. If I couldn't use an IDE I wouldn't have time to /. QED
Apple (Score:4, Funny)
If only Apple has been using an IDE that looked for unreachable code...
Fly By Wire (Score:3, Insightful)
IDEs are to programming as anti-lock brakes and Traction Control is to driving, as fly-by-wire is to flying, as any assistive technology is to anything else.
If they didn't exist, someone would write one because they are so useful.
Yes (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yes (Score:4, Interesting)
Offhand, yes, you are a less effective programmer if you rely on the IDE. I've seen many "programmers" that get completely lost if the IDE doesn't autocomplete everything for them.
That is a broad statement. Autocomplete is awesome when you're getting your hands into an existing codebase, and quickly need to be productive. It is also awesome when you have medium to big projects (between 500K lines, hundreds of classes/interfaces/whatever, and several million, thousands of classes/interfaces/whatever). I've seen many programmers completely lost at debugging *because* they were using a debugger - they wasted time identifying specific problems in their routines, while the whole approach was unsuitable - they would usually realize it after fixing the routine the first time, instead of looking at their code and trying to understand how could/would fail. Not all languages are equally suited for it, but those that fit the pattern (usually OOP stuff), works well.
My personal reason to use an IDE is syntax highlighting, project management features, and multi file navigation (it is common to have between 40 and 100 files open). Autocomplete is awesome, but it is a cherry on top of the cake. I could probably work without a full-blown IDE, but it wouldn't be the same thing.
Yes, if you rely on boilerplate code it generates. (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, "Would you be better off programming with Notepad?" No. A decent text editor is a must. Many programmers who "don't use IDEs" actually use text editors which are actually more powerful than many IDEs.
Tools are Good (Score:2)
What the hell, is it the 90s again? (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe the question is a bit misleading (Score:3)
Mombrea argues that 'being a good developer isn't about memorizing the language specific calls
As a recent C# convert, I can tell you that for me, it has become quite addicting.
New IDEs (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Exactly. Boosting your productivity is great. But hiding what "it" is doing is not. I started developing with QBasic and soon after Visual Basic, and it took years to understand how you'd develop without a GUI builder. The IDE hid too much complexity, set me up with bad assumptions, and it took a long time to learn what it was doing underneath. Knowing now, I'd have a much better grasp of how to organize code sooner, and I'd be a better developer for it.
TL;DR = Use them for the productivity boost, not to av
They're just tools. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm glad somebody tagged this "idioticstory" because it is. Developers use whatever tools are available. Sometimes if the tools aren't available, they write them themselves. I've used development tools of one kind or another over the last 30+ years, and there are a few I've written myself. Frankly, I think that if you don't use development tools, and don't ever think about writing your own, you're a little like the clueless user who just knows, "I click here, then I click here," without any understanding of what they're really doing or trying to accomplish.
The use of complex tools is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.
Yes and No (Score:3)
There is nothing wrong with using and IDE, that doesn't make you a bad programmer. Relying on an IDE does make you a bad programmer. Lets face it, there is a lot of boiler plate boring crap involved in programming. Using an IDE to handle the mundane stuff makes a lot of sense. But if you can't do your job without it then you are probably not very good at your job.
Using a calculator doesn't make you bad at math. Being unable to do math without a calculator makes you bad a math.
Would you be better off programming with Notepad? (Score:2)
Not if you need to actually debug it.
I thought we were done with this stupid idea. (Score:3)
I use Edlin, you insensitive clod! (Score:2)
Would you be better off programming with Notepad?
If having the most limiting tool available makes you a good programmer, then I recommend using Edlin. Or perhaps punch cards?
Does CAD make you a worse engineer? (Score:5, Insightful)
The answer is: No.
Nice try! (Score:3)
This is just the emacs/vi argument dressed up.
Notepad?! (Score:2)
Would you be better off programming with Notepad?
Notepad is crusty and not better than anything. Notepad has a glitchy word wrap, it does not allow different color themes and it does not show line numbers, for starters.
Perhaps if DICE had used an IDE (Score:5, Funny)
Perhaps if DICE had used an IDE, we could have avoided Slashdot Beta.
No (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether or not you use an IDE ought to say very little about how good of a programmer you are.
What makes a good programmer is someone who can produce stable, maintainable code in a reasonable time frame and someone who isn't worried about getting fired in order to fight for these goals. One part of maintainability is readable code and the other part is being able to communicate what you've done through documentation, written or oral.
Over the decades I've found that it makes no difference what tools you use, or what your age or educational or cultural background is. It doesn't matter so much whether you write few or many tests. You need to be patient, stubborn, thorough, curious, a problem solver, a voracious reader, and a great communicator to be a great programmer, and you need to have been doing it for at least 10 years. But companies should not shy away from helping to give someone those 10 years, because the best programmers will still do good work early on in their careers.
If you write code that just works but is unmaintainable by anyone and you hole up to write your code and you have no ability to communicate what you have done then you are a horrible programmer and you should be fired. There is a myth among some people that these are actually great programmers. These types of programmers tend to be, but are not always, extremely well qualified in terms of their educational or other experience but they make life difficult for all the other programmers that have to maintain their fragile junk. Fortunately, this type of software is less common in the free software community because this type of programming is called out.
Does using an airplane make you a bad superhero? (Score:3)
Yes. If you were a Real Programmer (TM) you'd focus your mind and flip bits on the motherboard.
Probably not. (Score:4, Insightful)
Who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)
If you can get the job done and get a paycheck what difference does it make?
Let the IDE holy wars begin. (Score:3)
I can tell you from experience from the development side of things that having a good IDE and proficient knowledge of it's features can greatly improve productivity of a team. You still need to know how to compile at a low level and what the various link and compiler options are and you should know how to use a native debugger but if you want to be productive and not worry about the minutia of details then use one. An IDE doesn't make you a better programmer but it does make you more productive and you can focus on learning those nuances and skills within the chosen programming language more easily, allowing you to gain more proficiency.
The whole "you don't need an IDE" may be true but it's like hunting bears without a rifle. Sure, you can hunt bears without a rifle but if you have one it's much easier and you get less bloody.
IDE for search, refactoring, etc (Score:3)
I'm surprised that so many of the comments for IDEs are restricted to things like autocomplete. IDEs do far more than that. Things like smart refactoring (beyond GREP/Replace), code searches and navigation (find references, go up and down the object hierarchy, find impls), and debugging (attach to remote process, breakpoints, etc).
It depends. (Score:5, Insightful)
If the IDE is helping you catch typos and quickly dig out references like method names, that's one thing.
If the IDE is providing so much scaffolding for your project, "wizards" and such, that you don't actually understand what's going on, that's another thing.
(I've seen both.)
In the end, potentially yes (Score:3)
From personal use/observation - they are helpful to get you up and running on a new language or one you have not had much exposure. They catch errors, help with syntax and api calls. But after a certain point they start to become more of a crutch.. almost training wheels. On reason for taking the training wheels off is to prove you actually can ride the bike. The same might be said of an IDE - after some period of time (months? years?) are you able to code without it? Do you really know what it is you are doing? Is the IDE holding back your own creativity?
Every each case is different, there is no black and white on this but I do think it may be worth stepping away from an IDE from time to time just to make sure you've not become over reliant.
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Re:Yes (Score:4, Informative)
Visual Studio IDE doesn't have makefile support, but it does include nmake.exe which is good enough. However, it doesn't support autotools, since that's a Unix-specific script.
I don't like autotools myself - modern apps that use it still perform checks concerning string.h in addition to trying to detect if something is Ansi C. Anything failing those checks should be considered too outdated to be worth bothering about (especially with the software not being designed to run on ~20 year old hardware.)
Re:Yes (Score:5, Funny)
In other words, it causes the programmer to rely on an automated build system instead of an automated build system.
Re:Proprietary vs. free build system (Score:4, Insightful)
But that's a one time cost, while maintaining makefiles is a many time, extremely high cost.
Re: (Score:3)
But that's a one time cost
It'd be a one-time cost if all projects used the same graphical IDE. It's not one-time if you have to obtain Eclipse for one project, Code Blocks for another, Visual Studio for a third, CodeWarrior for a fourth, etc. A lot of the IDEs' project file formats don't diff well either, which makes them harder to handle in version control.
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I would say that given how much functionality is in Emacs that's pretty much an IDE.
Re:Notepad has the same problem as an IDE. (Score:4, Insightful)
IDEs are 80/20 solutions.
Typing speed is squarely in the 20. Hunt and peckers? No, but I may as well be. On a 1 month project, there's probably, what, 8 hours of typing at most? Even if you could make me type so god damn fast that I would type the entire code -instantly-, that would only save 1 day of work. The biggest part is the thinking, discussion, architecture, the stuff you don't even need a computer to do.
Then once you sit down, its about reading the code, analyzing it, re factoring it, debugging it. For all those things, typing is almost irrelevant. If your typing efficiency actually makes a dent in your productivity in the grand scheme of things, your job is probably outsourcable.
Now, as I mentionned in another post, in some type/size of projects, IDEs like visual studios may actually slow to a crawl to the point that non-typing-related tasks may get bogged down by performance and inefficiency. Then yeah, its time to switch editor.
But until then? If you can type 30 character per minute and are doing something significant, you're probably not slowed down much.
Notable exception for prototyping and testing out snippets in unfamiliar environments (like when learning a new programming language). You're likely to type/run/type/run/type/run a LOT.
Re: (Score:3)
He's explaining it wrong and its detracting from his point. Webforms was basically the server side ancestor of the currently very popular AngularJS. Pieces of functionality (not just UI) were encapsulated in components ("web controls") that had their own life cycle, would ensure ids were unique, could contain their own css and scripts in their own DLLs.
You'd then drop them on a design surface (or stick them in XML code), sure. But that was just a convenient way of inserting the snippet. You weren't designin