Could Go Community's Threat of Public Shaming, Lifetime Bans Make Go a No-Go? 358
theodp writes: At first glance, the proposal for A Code of Conduct for the Go Community (attributed to Google's Andrew Gerrand) seems reasonable enough. How can you argue with the goal of treating everyone with respect and kindness? But the Devil is in the detail, and the proposed Code notes there soon could be consequences for calling someone an "idiot" or saying something is "so simple even my grandma could understand it" (the latter "marginalises women and the elderly by implying that something need be simple for an old woman to understand it"). And the punishment meted out by the Go Code of Conduct Working Group to those who find themselves on the receiving end of an anonymous complaint could be anything from nothing to "a request for a private or public apology, a private reprimand from the working group to the individual(s) involved, a public reprimand, an imposed vacation (for instance, asking someone to 'take a week off' from a mailing list or IRC), or a permanent or temporary ban from some or all Go spaces (mailing lists, IRC, etc.)." And no, this doesn't appear to be a goof. So, might individuals and companies think twice about embracing a programming language whose community's Code of Conduct threatens to ruin reputations and ban people from technical support resources for life? Too late to get this added to the list of questions for Alan Donovan and Brian Kernighan?
Typical thinking (Score:5, Insightful)
"This is a departure from the typical proposal process, since discussions Around Codes of Conduct tend to devolve quickly. By restricting the discussion Of this proposal to 1:1 conversations between myself and members of the Community, I hope to better hear everyone’s specific concerns without generating unnecessary noise."
This is a typical excuse from people who want to push things through without public discussion. They call public discussion "noise". I have no idea who this guy is, but he sounds like an egomaniac. Well guess what? We are calling you out. You don't get "1:1 conversations between yourself" and everyone else. This is the Internet.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Discussion about codes of conduct is seen to "devolve" by those pushing these codes of conduct typically because people do start pointing out the hypocrisy that's typically strewn throughout these codes of conducts.
A clear example is the discussion about the Open Code of Conduct [github.com] from a few months ago.
In that discussion, people started noting that the code of conduct essentially deemed it perfectly fine to discriminate in certain cases. For whatever reason, some of those pushing for the code of conduct were
Re:Typical thinking (Score:4, Informative)
They're using "harassment" or "politically correct" as an excuse to harass and be assholes to people they see as assholes, and aren't really considering they're far worse than anyone they're accusing. The FreeBSD thing is interesting because it's someone advocating the newly adopted CoC be used to boot Randi Harper, who hasn't contributed to the project in years, but feels fine harassing male contributors and also pushed for the CoC in the first place to control other peoples behaviour.
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If you work with them on "their" forums, in "their" community, can you not just follow their rules? You don't have to agree with them.
You can also create your own community, where the rules are as you like them (i.e. probably none), and do what you want to do. I suspect you will end up with the larger community when you're done. More importantly, someone probably needs to do this since I have a strong distrust for Golang (also C# and Swift) given that it's a corporate sponsored language and probably not "fr
Re: (Score:3)
It's funny how this option is not acceptable to the activist zealots when it comes to the Linux kernel.
That reminds me, how is SJLinux [github.com] doing?
Re: (Score:2)
You don't know many autistic people. They don't particularly care about people's feelings, or political correctness.
Re: A link between codes of conduct and autism? (Score:3, Interesting)
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I would argue the opposite. The mainstreaming of computers/internet has caused an influx of neurotypicals to join the party, and they are used to being able to save face when they fuck up. The aspergers programmer stereotype does not understand this, because, to such personalities, the system is everything, and assumes everyone else involved has the same mindset. In fact, it may be this attitude that allows the blunt honesty that's necessary in technical work. Reality does not care about feelings.
Re: (Score:3)
No, it's not really autistic people who are pushing this crap. It's people who think they can use engineer's own perceptions of their social skills (whether due to "autism" or not) against them. They come in saying "you're all a bunch of assholes, here's the code the Good People follow". And some number of engineers, knowing their own social skills are not the best, actually believe them. At it's heart, it's basically just a new form of nerd-bashing (even when done by other nerds).
Microaggressions out, passive-aggressions in (Score:4, Insightful)
If he just removed the line about "microaggressions" and the following two lines (and examples), it would be a reasonable code of conduct.
Of course, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The whole point of this exercise is to use the CoC as a means to promote an ideology.
Now, given all the complaints this will surely generate, do you think he'll take his own advice?
Somehow I doubt it.
Re: (Score:2)
I have no problem with a code of conduct that states: "Be courteous and professional". In fact, why the hell does a code of conduct need paragraphs of rule lawyering? What bad behavior is not covered by "Be courteous and professional"? Trying to drill down into specifics just ends up looking ridiculous. Let's examine a few:
"Microaggressions" are imaginary insults by supremely overly-sensitive people. If someone is being a jerk, they're not committing "microaggressions", they're being a jerk. You can i
Or. (Score:2)
" So, might individuals and companies think twice about embracing a programming language whose community's Code of Conduct threatens to ruin reputations and ban people from technical support resources for life? "
Or might individuals and companies embrace a programming language whose community that is polite and professional?
Maybe it is time for people to understand that being straightforward and direct is not the same as being a rude jerk.
If you read the actual proposal you will see that they have a range o
Re: (Score:2)
I'm with you here. And I'm with you despite understanding that a good portion of the community has social issues that might not be in their control. For some those people having a community say "Hey, there's a line here and you crossed it" may be the 'saving throw vs wisdom' (as I've seen it described) that allows them to hold up a mirror and start realizing that behaving in a manner that is perceived by others as being anti-social has consequences. Empathy can be a learned skill, but it's hard to learn,
Re:Or. (Score:4, Informative)
No, no they won't - When access to the community depends on the mercy of a self-appointed minimod with the power to ban you without recourse... No sane company will touch this with a ten foot pole.
If you read the actual proposal you will see that they have a range of options if someone is out of line.
Yep... Up to "a permanent or temporary ban from some or all Go spaces". Thanks for your five years of contributions, but you made the wrong person look bad without even realizing it - See ya, better luck next career!
The very fact that people keep mentioning Linus as a good example of why we "need" CoCs like this pretty much counts as its own best counterexample. He created the number one operating system in the world (if you include Android's market share), yet communities like this wouldn't even let him hang out in their playpen lest he hurt some poor snowflake's feelings. Yeah, thanks, I'll take a hundred productive-but-no-nonsense Torvalds over a kindler, gentler Gerrand any day.
If you want pablum, stick to Farmville. If you want to join us in the coding trenches, wear asbestos underwear.
Re: (Score:2)
"If you want pablum, stick to Farmville. If you want to join us in the coding trenches, wear asbestos underwear."
I have been in the trenches for decades and for the most part professionals don't act like jerks. You have a few primadonnas now and then that you put up with but for the most part they are just tolerated.
Re: (Score:2)
Which makes a CoC a solution looking for a problem. And whenever you have that situation, you know someone is trying to foist some bullshit on you.
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I have been in the trenches for decades and for the most part professionals don't act like jerks.
Then there is no need for a code of conduct.
I think the real problem here is that people like you do not know what these social justice warriors are talking about.
They are talking about being able to take offense at whatever the hell they want. Statements such as "even my grandmother could use it" will be used against you, but only when they decide that you are next.
for light hearted technical information.
This is very offensive to people with postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. Its a medical condition and out of their control. You s
Re: (Score:2)
Yep... Up to "a permanent or temporary ban from some or all Go spaces". Thanks for your five years of contributions, but you made the wrong person look bad without even realizing it - See ya, better luck next career!
Do you have any evidence of this sort of abuse? Any? At all?
Didn't think so.
Your argument is essentially a slippery slope fallacy. If we don't allow absolutely anything, then we'll end up allowing nothing of substance. There are many, many productive well-moderated communities in the world that beg to differ. In fact, most real-life communities, because people generally don't act like jerks in real life like they do on line. I think it's the ever-present sub-rosa threat of a punch in the face, myself, b
Re: (Score:2)
Every HoA ever. Tumblr. Metafilter. Reddit... Hell, Reddit provides an entire laboratory of experimental evidence of exactly what I claim. In the name of making it exactly the sort of warmer and fuzzier place this Go CoC tries for, we have seen vast swaths of users shadow banned without comment or recourse. Yes, they purged a few hives of scum and villainy, and managed to chase off a few real pieces of shit in the process - And didn't care
Re:Or. (Score:4, Informative)
SJWs literally just put a young girl in the hospital for a suicide attempt because they didn't like how she drew some steven universe fanart.
Re:Or. (Score:5, Informative)
'Steven Universe' fandom is melting down after bullied fanartist attempts suicide [dailydot.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Linus gets away with it because it's his show and there's no shortage of people who want to contribute to the kernel. But for
Re:Or. (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is that CoCs are always enforced by those with the thinnest skins, because, almost by definition, they are the only ones who care.
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Introducing SJW, the programming language! (Score:4, Insightful)
Hey Andy, have you ever wondered why Plus failed so miserably?
Well, good news - You'll get a second chance to learn this lesson in the very near future!
Re: (Score:2)
If you mean people that happened to have one automatically attached to there google accounts and not turned it off no not really
Even Andrew's Grandma (Score:4, Funny)
Even Andrew's Grandma would think his code of conduct silly, he should talk to her about it
Re: (Score:2)
it's worse than that, because I think women are on average better at such social constructs than men, and moreover an old woman has lifetime experiences to share on such matters. Stereotypes! or as I sometimes call them, useful generalizations
No, the code-of-conduct will not harm go (Score:4, Insightful)
I simply cannot see how having a code of conduct based on treating other people in a respectful manner will result in discouraging desirable developers and companies from joining the community. Quite the reverse in fact!
Re: (Score:2)
There are a lot of people (like me) who will pretty much see these rules as a challenge. Eventually I will do something stupid...just because. And if that gets me banned for life, then I am screwed.
I would avoid it completely.
On the other hand, if I can lend a hand to someone, I absolutely will. If I can do something to make things better for other people...I will. But if you put down rules that essentially pre-judge me, I will purposely do something to piss you off.
It's the same as giving a middle fing
Re:No, the code-of-conduct will not harm go (Score:4, Insightful)
Your implication that I am not desirable is offensive. I demand a public apology and if it happens again you shall be banned for life.
Re: (Score:2)
"treating other people in a respectful manner". Sounds nice doesn't it? Who could possibly object to that? Trouble is - no-one knows in advance what constitutes "respectful", and Microaggressions can mean whatever you want them to mean. I think I'm a generally polite sort of person, not prone to trading insults, but I wouldn't like that threat hanging over me
Re: (Score:2)
If you don't know what constitutes respectful behavior, then maybe you weren't brought up right. I don't mean you specifically, of course.
This is where listening comes in handy. It's kind of a lost art.
Re: (Score:2)
> If you don't know what constitutes respectful behavior, then maybe you weren't brought up right.
I know what *I* think is respectful behaviour, (and I daresay we would largely agree were we to compare notes). However it won't be me pointing a finger and brandishing a copy of the CoC to get someone drummed out of town. In my view the sort of person who will use this will typically have an arcanely complex definition of respectful behaviour, doubtless involving odd new pronouns I've only vaguely heard of.
Re: (Score:2)
And yet, many people are able to participate in online forums without getting banned.
Re: (Score:3)
Again, the key is listening.
If you're not a jerk (and I don't mean you specifically), you would be surprised at the amount of latitude and understanding people give you. Everybody knows what passive-aggressive behavior sounds like. And you know how miserable it is to deal with someone who is passive-aggressive towards you.
The same way, it's pret
Re: (Score:2)
Just read the comments to this story. You'll get the picture.
"Those people who are complaining about bullying really need to have their asses kicked!"
Dear leftists: they'll come for you, too. (Score:4, Insightful)
I know the 'microagression' thing is a beloved trope of the left and fearless Social Justice Warriors. But the thing is, in order to show what a good person you are in this context, you have to keep moving and moving further and further to the left. It always comes to a point where it becomes ridiculous and counterproductive.
Remember the "Black Lives Matter" people who deliberately disrupted the furthest left presidential candidate America has ever had, the openly socialist Bernie Sanders? Yeah, that. If there is anyone who is a friend of the extremists in BLM, it's him - and yet they treated him like an enemy. Even if you're on the left, or the hard left, there are always others who are ready to show you just how far down the rabbit hole goes.
Now, this is just a programming language, this isn't the literal jackboot of oppression as employed by left-wing governments of the past. Nobody is going to be sentenced to slavery or sent down to the countryside for defying Andrew Gerrand. So, let's keep some perspective here. However, this is showing all the classic signs of the ever-ratcheting extremism that is a hallmark of the political left. They'll come for you too, even if you have a stellar record of social justice warrioring. A single offhand comment is sufficient. I thought I recognized the "theodp" account, and sure enough it's one of Slashdot's solidly left-wing contributors, with a long record of approved social justice friendly submissions. But even SHE is turned off by this kind of thing! :(
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Nothing substantial in the link you provided paints the two disruptive BLM activists as "plants". In fact it concludes that there just was a lot of confusion going on among different BLM chapter in Seattle, and the site issued an important update to the whole story here: http://deadstate.org/blacklive... [deadstate.org]
So, who's really deluded and uninformed here ?
Re: (Score:3)
The article that you linked doesn't suggest anything along the lines of a plant. Perhaps you should actually read it.
Re: (Score:2)
Your own link humiliates you:
Apparently, the connections between Johnson, Jacqueline, and the group Outside Agitators 206 to the BLM movement are not as unclear as we believed. Posting on her Facebook page today, the Los Angeles co-founder of BLM Patrisse Marie Cullors-Brignac openly embraced the Seattle activists and defended them against attacks from bloggers and the media. Please see our important update to this story here.
Some poeple just love huge CoCs. (Score:5, Insightful)
Some people really love gigantic CoCs. It seems like big CoCs are the in thing right now, but personally, I find massive CoCs to be uncomfortable.
Dick jokes aside, while I'm in favor of having some community expectations of conduct, I'm not in favor of building a huge body of rules to cover every single situation. What you need are some simple rules ("conduct yourself with courtesy and professionalism", "don't be an asshole", etc) and a group of trustworthy moderators who enforce those rules fairly regardless of the political views of the person the rules are being applied to.
Even if your rules are well-intentioned, the trouble is that the larger and more specific the rule set, the more easily one clique or another will be able to manipulate those rules to their advantage. It's better, as a moderator, to be able to identify individuals who are toxic and remove them from the community than have a set of arbitrary and overly specific rules that you'll ultimately fail to enforce fairly. All too often, you'll end up deciding that you *want* to get rid of a particular community member due to them having an overall negative impact on the community, and then watching them like a hawk so that you can ban them for the tiniest violation of your rule set, all the while your regular (and less toxic) users are constantly committing tiny rules violations themselves.
To be honest, large rule sets *invite* toxicity, because a) people tend to see them as a challenge, and b) some people realize they're part of the in-crowd and can get away with flouting the rules while other people who *aren't* part of the in-crowd get banned for small infractions.
And this is to say nothing of CoCs which *aren't* well-intentioned. The GitHub projects CoC, for instance, explicitly carved out rights for people to bully others based on race, sex, orientation, etc, simply based on whether that person is part of the majority with respect to those particular attributes. I'm all for disallowing gendered and racial harassment, but I have to suspect the motives of people writing a CoC that gives certain people carte blanche to engage in that kind of harassment. Harassment is *ever a good thing*. You aren't losing anything by disallowing *all of it*.
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed. This CoC would have been a thousand times better if the entire thing was limited to what they listed in the summary:
Treat everyone with respect and kindness
Be mindful of how your words may be interpreted
Don’t be destructive or antagonistic
If you have an issue, please mail conduct@golang.org
Also, you've undoubtedly just violated the Go CoC with that little joke. Apparently, post
Why is this even an issue? (Score:2)
This is bizar.
Anybody with 2 braincells knows that Linus' phrasing and wording of critique can be notably immature.
He admitted that himself!
Why does a PL need such a policy in the first place?
For instance, the company employing Linus can very well send him a notice, emphasising the fact that he is a public figure - wether he likes it or not - and should be careful when about to fall into profanity. They can offer him a secretary to cross-read his mails on delicate/enraging issues.
There is no need for a frig
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
SJWs are pushing these 'code of conduct' policies on open source projects so they can infiltrate and take over, just as they've done on everything else. This is why you never, ever, accept any of them into an open source project, and laugh when they suggest that you need a 'code of conduct'.
Of course, it doesn't really work with an open source license, since the coders they kick out of their own projects can just fork and start a new one. Except they'll presumably ensure that GPL4 has a section which prohib
Re: (Score:3)
There is no need for a friggin' policy just because .5 % of people in coding MLs get childish and unprofessional in a post or two every odd year!!
No, but there is a need because 0.01% are childish and unprofessional all the time. Any sufficiently-large community will eventually attract some jerks. You can shout them down, sometimes, but it's a distraction and doesn't always work. Better just to correct them quietly. Those that just can't behave, you ask to leave, because whatever their technical ability may be, there are others who are better and know how to act like grownups, at least most of the time.
My Granny (Score:2)
(1) No, of course she isn't. - Disclaimer so Google doesn't ban me
well... (Score:2)
Go is good for Google and... that's it (Score:2)
Go enforces a certain cording style, has rules regarding what you should use and what you shouldn't use and now even specifies how you should behave.
Such uniformity makes sense if you have a company with well defined goals and want to promote teamwork. So yeah, it is very good for Google : they make a language the suits their needs, with rules that matches their company policies.
As for the outside world, then yes, for me it is a no-go. Putting rules beside what's necessary for compilers to work is a great w
*sigh*... (Score:4, Interesting)
There's no doubt he needs a code of conduct, and I agree with some of the provisions in there, but you have to read between the lines to get what he means, and it's not pretty. I'd like to quote them all, but there's too many, so I'll stick with the worst:
I sympathize here, as I agree: no everyone does learn English. However: you need to settle on a standard language, and English is the best choice most of the time. Forgive someone for writing sentences with a little awkward grammar? Definitely. Machen es so niemand kann mich verstehen? Nein.
Translation: judge a person on their social status first, and if they outrank you in developer status or connections, keep your mouth shut, no matter how bad the bug. (And yes, it will become this way.)
Hand in hand with the above. Make sure never to anything that could possibly start a confrontation, and if someone has a wrong answer or makes a bug, don't say anything for fear of making conflict.
Long list of things, but this is the worst. Basically, since anything could be offensive (because this totally specifies what's a ""microaggression""), always speak as reserved and uptight as you can, and never relax your guard.
Yeeeeah... Basically, never ever defend yourself, just immediately bow down and admit you were mistaken. The project leader is always right, he knows what's best, and never never ever ever never ever ever doubt him and his infinite wisdom.
YEEEEEEEEEAH... Okay. My grandmother uses that line a lot, and I occasionally do to. My grandmother lived through WWII, with a polish mother, and lost her entire family (save for her parents). I dare this guy to do what she did, to be even a 1/10th as badass. My grandmother and I never mean any disrespect when we say it, it's a very tongue in cheek thing, and only when this guy insists it's offensive does it become so. Why, you ask? I'd never take it serious before, because it's so obvious that my grandmother very well could do it, and yet he has the balls to seriously think my grandmother is not capable of, let's say, lifting a pan. That is way more offensive than the original phrase ever was, just wow.
SJW nonsense (Score:2)
The rationale is literal counterfactual nonsense. Having an CoC is neither necessary nor sufficient for having a friendly or "welcoming" community. The proposal gives no evidence about problems in the community or about how these problems would be solved.
The CoC is a non-solution for a non-problem.
There's a problem here (Score:2)
I've been around the ziggurat a few times, and unless things have changed in the last few days, it takes at least two willing participants to have a kerfuffle. And since this CoC is designed to protect victims, it will remove the professional victim's raison d'être. And in a world where some people believe that disagreeing with them is harassment, or the never clever "microagression", what we have here is what will end up be
You have to ttry something (Score:2)
The downsides being cited against Google's Go "poiteness" policy are all hypothetical. Let's let it play out, do the experiement and see how it does actually play out. You have to try something new or you'll end up where you 've always been.
If you are one who likes where things are, and I am not criticizing anyone who does, then things are as good as they're likely to get IMO. If you think the conversational tone and interactions online would be better if they were other than they are now, then you have to
GoSpeak (Score:3)
Thanks ok... in the face of politicly correct censorship we can always turn to Orwellian concepts for inspiration, enter: GoSpeak
Now just need to write a Go program to normalise the various offensive synonyms on their forum... fixed no need to ban anyone.
Same problem as the rest of the Internet (Score:4, Insightful)
Comment Subject boycott (Score:2)
Even my grandmother could understand it's a reference to a generation brought up without pervasive internet and personal computing.
I find that statement highly problematic (Score:2)
...marginalises women and the elderly by implying that something need be simple for an old woman to understand it
I am deeply offended at your quickness to assume that my grandmother is "elderly" or an "old woman". I also don't understand how one can so callously write off all the people whose grandmothers do not self-identify as female. Whoever proposed such an intolerant policy deserves a lifetime ban.
You Insensitive Clod! (Score:2)
My grandma is Grace Hopper!
So basically... (Score:2)
... he's hoping he can please all the people, all the time? Yeah, there shouldn't be a problem accomplishing that. It's not like people have been famously saying that that's impossible for the last 150 years [wordpress.com] or anything. Proceed.
Offended by the mailing list name "golang-nuts" (Score:2, Funny)
I'm offended by the mailing list name golang-nuts because "nuts" is a slang term used to refer to testicles. By naming the mailing list golang-nuts it indicates that it's a male dominated mailing list where women (those without "nuts") are not welcome. Please change the mailing list name to be more inclusive.
Would it have hurt to explain which Go? (Score:2)
One thing is for sure, (Score:2)
Go won't be used for Linux kernel programming anytime soon.
So a programming community for SJWs? (Score:2)
Lumbergh: Yeah...I'm gonnna have to...say...nnnnoooo to this one.
Seriously, if some tool is spouting off and needs to be called on it...
Re: (Score:2)
Well, that was shameless.
Introducing the SJW language (Score:5, Funny)
Mellow greetings, special butterflies.
Today (not to disrespect those on the other side of the national dateline - when I say today, I mean everyone's today!) I (with full credit to everyone everywhere, of course) would like (this is not a statement of exclusion for things I don't like) to introduce SJW, the language you can share without fear (not that fear is wrong, of course.)
SJW:
o No insert() function: Instead, we have crafted a flawless nomeansno() function
o Fully complementary yesmeansno() and maybemeansno() functions
o No try:, because every function generates an exception!
o exit() has been replaced with aloha().
o Procedure calls have been replaced with the respectful request paradigm, which obey the global mood settings
o 100% private internal assumption for all functions; offering data requires guessing if the function will take it or crash (exceptions guaranteed)
o Every access from within a function to another function must be embedded in a call to politewrapper()
o politewrapper() implements infinite recursion by use of counters instead of ever returning up a level
o Every function ends with a sequence of calls to apologize(), cleanup() and washreturnvalue()
o All programs will be created equal: all code is treated exactly the same and does exactly the same thing, which is apologize for running.
Re:Introducing the SJW language (Score:5, Funny)
I apologize for saying "national dateline" when clearly I should have said "international dateline." I am sorry for any consternation caused to nationalists, internationalists, jingoists, and timekeepers. In addition, I apologize to anyone I failed to mention. I will now enter into a voluntary two-week exclusion from mentioning time in any form. I also apologize for violating that two week exclusion with the previous sentence. Also, as "previous" is a timewise reference, I also apologize for that. I'm sorry. Truly sorry. Which is not to offend those of you who are more sorry about other things. I fully respect that, I swear. Not in an offensive way, of course.
Re:Introducing the SJW language (Score:5, Funny)
o insert() function: Instead, we have crafted a flawless nomeansno() function
You rape apologist supporting rape culture! Shame on you! If either party doesn't receive an explicit "yes, continue" constantly throughout an encounter, the man is raping the woman. You need a yesmeansyes() function immediately, as nomeansno() is deprecated.
exit() has been replaced with aloha().
You racist, appropriating native Hawaiian culture! Shame on you! Don't pretend to know anything of the lived experiences of oppressed people,
All programs will be created equal: all code is treated exactly the same and does exactly the same thing, which is apologize for running.
You know nothing of intersectional feminism! Each program has a differing degree of privilege and oppression, and must be run at a priority to compensate for these wrongs! To claim equality is to ignore ongoing injustice - shame on you!
Banned for 3 consecutive life sentences!
Seriously, though, I'm not making any of that up. This is why appeasement is a terrible strategy when it comes to SJWs: you cannot appease them. You can only ignore them, and walk away from anything they take over.
Re:Introducing the SJW language (Score:4, Funny)
o All programs will be required to check their privileges before running.
There's always the classics (Score:4, Funny)
First they came for the BASIC programmers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a BASIC programmer.
Then they came for the go programmers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a go programmer.
Then they came for the canines, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a canine.
Then they came for me—and I told them to GTFO my mailing list.
Re: (Score:3)
Shut up, Wesley.
Your footnote is a perfect example of the SJW credo of "Do as we say, not as we do".
Re: (Score:3)
The problem is implementation - once a community gets past a certain size, you have enough people that the marginal nutcases can band together and be a signficant force.
Because most people don't want to spend half their time fighting to maintain a sane community, they just want to participate in the community.
It's not just online forums, I've run into this with fan volunteer organizations and condo associations - there's always someone with more time than you who wants to enforce their overly restrictive mo
Re:Just asking for adult behavior! (Score:5, Informative)
This is not adult behavior, this is childish behavior. They are attempting to coddle, marginalize, dictate speech, etc etc in an effort to control intent Adults can say that's stupid or you're a moron as part of normal healthy discourse it's intent that matters. Healthy razzing friendly banter etc etc is part of normal adult communication.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"t Adults can say that's stupid or you're a moron as part of normal healthy discourse it's intent that matters. Healthy razzing friendly banter etc etc is part of normal adult communication."
Among friends yes it can be. In a working group of developers without any face to face social interaction no. At that point it is just harassment.
Re: (Score:2)
"t Adults can say that's stupid or you're a moron as part of normal healthy discourse it's intent that matters. Healthy razzing friendly banter etc etc is part of normal adult communication." Among friends yes it can be. In a working group of developers without any face to face social interaction no. At that point it is just harassment.
+1
I don't see anything wrong with the code of conduct, regardless of the extremely slanted summary.
It may come as a shock to some here, but it is actually possible to have a discussion, even a heated disagreement, without calling people names. And, you know what? It's actually both more pleasant and more effective! Rather than saying that a person who tossed out a dumb idea is a moron, you just call the dumb idea a dumb idea. It's not hard at all, just focus your criticism on the ideas, or code, or what
Oh, FFS. (Score:2)
No, locking people out of a technical community because someone is (or might be) "offended" is not a good thing. It is counter-productive and short-sighted.
A good thing is to encourage people to not think of themselves of fragile little butterflies who will be destroyed for life if someone says a harsh word.
There are now a whole lot of people that need to learn to tell the difference between the speech of people who are passionate about their ideas and people who are actually trying to cause personal harm.
Re: (Score:3)
Actually, we should just move them all into padded rooms with speakers that repeat over and over "you're safe in here, please relax, everyone loves you and the world is bright, fluffy place. Be sure to report any offensive colors or angles to the volunteer asylum worker who serves you your conflict-free food."
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Oh please. This seems like an American fixation: the idea of being free from being offended. It's a great divergence of what Americans should believe in: Freedom of speech. Being withering daisies prevents important things from being said. That is what ALL censorship does. It interferes with the most efficient operation of a community or government.
Linus says that his sensibilities are only "cultural" and I am inclined to agree with him. I've had exposure to other cultures that aren't nearly as pansy as Ame
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Really?? Pulling the 'harassment' card out now??? What a moron.
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The means of communication has nothing to do with it. This is coddling people who have not yet grown up as far as their social interactions. Sure that's pretty common as hardcore programmers go.
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Do you even understand the definition of "harassment"?
Harassment, per Google is aggressive pressure or intimidation. An insult is not harassment.
If you call me an idiot, I'm not going to call that harassment. I might tell you to calm down. I might even ask you what I did (if I wasn't already aware of it) that made you call me that. Hell, maybe you're trying to get my attention because I'm a bit block-headed and can't see the forest for the trees sometimes. A lot of people need to inject something into
Re: (Score:2)
There are plenty of online dev communities with little to no face to face. They razz each other all the time and things are fine. In fact, they are probably some of the most honest communities you'll find anywhere, face to face, or online. The razzing keeps things from getting too stiff and acts like a filter that keeps the whiners out.
Re: Just asking for adult behavior! (Score:3)
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I endorse the above post.
Although, every once in a while, I find it... stimulating... to beat a troll down into the mud, inevitably becoming one myself in the process.
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The easily offended are rarely civil.
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Anyone trying to push through a CoC into what is basically a public forum has already gone too far. The only reason for it is to punish people they don't like.
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It is amazing to me that asking people to act like functional adults and not social misfits in a public forum is a possible death knell for ANY community.
Yes, because the people who managed to design, build, operate, maintain, and improve upon computers, the internet, and software in general for the last 60 years couldn't possibly have been adult. Thank goodness we have this guy to lead us from the darkness and save us from ourselves.
The devil is always in the details, so if they apply the ban hammer TOO harshly, it'll run people off, sure, but it's a little early to assume that, don't you think?
No.
Re: (Score:2)
Not really.
Any organization that is filled with functional adults really doesn't need codes of conduct, or have strong enough members to police bad behavior where it's found.
Having an official code of conduct that's enshrined within the officialness of the officiating body makes the assumption from the outset that without these rules, people don't know how to behave.
You know, like those darned atheists who don't have a god to tell them how to be nice to each other*.
If you need a code of conduct, you're tell
Re:Just asking for adult behavior! (Score:4, Insightful)
No. CoCs are now about shielding children from reality. It's all about appealing to insecurity in order to control narrative (and thus the organization). Once implemented, they encourage people to say/do stupid shit and then hide behind 'oppression' or 'discrimination' instead of facing up to mistakes and fixing them. Really, the end goal is to burn the project's resources in 'signal boosting' particular political ideologies towards society at large. The more relevant the group, the bigger a target it becomes.
This probably started at the topmost institutions in society (government, ivy league, corporates). Most of the individuals pushing these at lower levels are probably clueless about it, but some are not. These would be the 'crusaders' that've been discussed here before.
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Expecting decent behavior is not the same as enforcing hypocrisy.
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Your post gave me PTSD, you should be banned.
You laugh, but that crazy bitch Melody Hensley claims she got PTSD [google.com] from twitter after she received some spirited criticism for some of her stupider comments.
She also tried to get some active duty military folks fired [freerepublic.com] for daring to suggest that she might not actually have PTSD.
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While it's possible that a thin skinned person might notice something others missed, it's much more likely that he'll routinely create drama that drags everyone else away from the purpose of the project.
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So then release the bombs if you want it to stop, because nothing short of eliminating intelligent life on this planet will ever eliminate rudeness.
People get emotional and have outbursts, it happens to the best of us. I always felt the old programmer's axiom "be conservative in your output and liberal in what inputs you accept" was really the best. Try not to have outbursts, and when someone else slips....move the fuck on.
We don't need to talk about it, we don't need to make sure it never happens again. We
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In Linus' case, I'll cut him slack. He's been doing it so long that anyone in his position would get tired of seeing the same crap coding being submitted. He's got standards, and if you're not willing to adhere to those standards you shouldn't be dropping stuff to him. It's not like he hasn't said the same basic stuff 1e6 times in the past, so expecting him to change his standards to not offend some poor snowflake that couldn't be bothered to figure out what was expected is asking a bit much.
In his current
Re: (Score:3)
Except that linus isn't constantly rude. He has rugburned a few people who should've known better. Good technical people know that stupid needs to be nipped in the bud. It can't be allowed to fester just so thin skinned people can retain their unwarranted self-images.
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Linux is very carefully only be rude to people that deserve it. Of course some of them claim they have been wronged without good reason, but of you look closer, that is only because they would prefer not to have to listen to an analysis of how they messed up. The problem with politeness is that some people (often the really incompetent ones) prefer to misunderstand what you are saying. After all you were still nice, so your screw-up could not have been that bad, now could it?
Personally, I prefer cutting peo
Re:If they want SJWs coding... (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Dude. That form is busted. I'm not going to waste my time trying to be hip.
Pastor Kneemonger sez: (Score:2)
First they came for the aggressors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not an aggressor.
Then they came for the micro-aggressors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a micro-aggressor.
Then they came for the nano-aggressors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a nano-aggressor.
Re: (Score:3)
I heard there were strings attached, but no one could really get a grip on them.