C Isn't The Most Popular Programming Language, JavaScript Is (networkworld.com) 241
An anonymous reader quotes Network World:
U.K.-based technology analyst firm RedMonk just released the latest version of its biannual rankings of programming languages, and once again JavaScript tops the list, followed by Java and PHP. Those are same three languages that topped RedMonk's list in January. In fact, the entire top 10 remains the same as it was it was six months ago...
Python ranked #4 on RedMonk's list, while the survey found a three-way tie for fifth place between Ruby, C#, and C++, with C coming in at #9 (ranking just below CSS). Network World argues that while change comes slowly, "if you go back deeper into RedMonk's rankings, you can see slow, ongoing ascents from languages such as Go, Swift and even TypeScript."
Interestingly, an earlier ranking by the IEEE declared C to be the top programming language of 2016, followed by Java, Python, C++, and R. But RedMonk's methodology involves studying the prevalence of each language on both Stack Overflow and GitHub, a correlation which "we believe to be predictive of future use, hence their value."
Python ranked #4 on RedMonk's list, while the survey found a three-way tie for fifth place between Ruby, C#, and C++, with C coming in at #9 (ranking just below CSS). Network World argues that while change comes slowly, "if you go back deeper into RedMonk's rankings, you can see slow, ongoing ascents from languages such as Go, Swift and even TypeScript."
Interestingly, an earlier ranking by the IEEE declared C to be the top programming language of 2016, followed by Java, Python, C++, and R. But RedMonk's methodology involves studying the prevalence of each language on both Stack Overflow and GitHub, a correlation which "we believe to be predictive of future use, hence their value."
Nitrous oxide (Score:2)
is more popular than oxygen. Millions have already switched!!
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Nitrogen is more popular than oxygen by a factor of about 3.7
Only if you look at just the atmosphere. If you include the lithosphere and the oceans, oxygen wins by a landslide. In the universe, oxygen is about ten times as common [wikipedia.org]. But as a consolation prize, nitrogen-14 is by far the most common substance with an odd number of both protons and neutrons.
What does any of this have to do with programming languages?
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It's a gas. I am laughing I hadn't switched before.
CSS? (Score:5, Insightful)
CSS is hardly a programming language. Thus, RedMonk can be safely ignored.
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Javascript (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Javascript (Score:5, Insightful)
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What silly criteria did you use to make those distinctions?
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Yes, obviously.
For you kids out there, consider this insane, but completely possible, project: Write a JavaScript compiler in JavaScript, implementing a few API's you'll want for some low-level stuff next. Write an OS in JavaScript, compile it with your compiler. Implement JavaScript in JavaScript, compile it with your JavaScript compiler. Compile your JavaScript compiler, on the OS you wrote in JavaScript, by running your JavaScript compiler in your JavaScript implementation. Now you can compile your
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Yes, obviously.
For you kids out there, consider this insane, but completely possible, project: Write a JavaScript compiler in JavaScript, implementing a few API's you'll want for some low-level stuff next. Write an OS in JavaScript, compile it with your compiler. Implement JavaScript in JavaScript, compile it with your JavaScript compiler. Compile your JavaScript compiler, on the OS you wrote in JavaScript, by running your JavaScript compiler in your JavaScript implementation. Now you can compile your OS, from your OS, using a compiler you compiled on your OS. Everything from top to bottom being written in Javascript. Bootstrappy!
Yes, it's a terrible idea. JavaScript is obviously wasn't designed for those sorts of tasks. The point, of course, is that it's possible to do such a thing. I should probably point out that you could do the same thing in just about every other language you dislike. This is CS 101 stuff, kids.
So, if that's how you discriminate between "programming languages" and "scripting languages" you'll find that very few (likely none) of the languages you currently believe to be "scripting languages" qualify as such under your own criteria.
Whew - what a lot of work! Why not just use Javascript to write a C compiler? Then use your C compiler to compile any existing kernel/system?
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It's not just a client side scripting language any more.
"Any more"? It never has been. I was doing serverside JS in the 90s with Netscape-SSJS, Classic ASP/JScript, and SpeedScript.
None of which are even around anymore... Thanks. Now I feel old.
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Can you tell me the precise difference between the two? Sure Python may have JIT, but at the end of the day, it's distributables are plain text files, so it has a lot more in common with sh/ksh/bash than C or Java.
Re:Javascript (Score:4, Funny)
I figured it out. Languages he likes are programming languages. Languages he doesn't like are scripting languages.
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Look at Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Perhaps you should look at that page yourself. This is the very first sentence (emphasis mine):
This category lists scripting programming languages.
"Scripting" and "programming" are not two different things. Scripting is programming.
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There's no real, objective, distinction. Neither is there a need to make such a distinction. It's an impossible task that serves no purpose.
You're wasting an awful lot of outrage on completely meaningless nonsense. Let it go. You'll feel better.
Re:Javascript (Score:4, Insightful)
All scripting languages are programming languages.
And considering how JavaScript is used, it is hardly a scripting language anyway. The word "Script" in its name is misleading.
If you want to argue about Scripting languages than ksh, bash, TCL, JCL are scripting languages, JavaScript is far from those in every regard.
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Programming, in context, is the act of instructing a general purpose computer how to accomplish a particular task. Scripting languages are used to instruct general purpose computers how to accomplish a task. Thus, scripting languages are programming languages.
You, on the other hand, are an incredible idiot who should no longer be allowed to communicate with people.
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Is this a joke??? JavaScript is a SCRIPTING Language, not a PROGRAMMING language.
In 20 years of doing this shit for a living (C/C++, VB, FoxPro, Java, C#, Python, Assembly, etc.) I have never heard such a ridiculous distinction. JavaScript can be run as a scripting language, standalone or embedded just as Python, Ruby, Lua, Erlang or Bash. And unlike Bash (and like Python, Ruby, Lua and/or Erlang), it is also used to build full-blown stand-alone systems.
Scripting is just a programming facet or capability. What a ridiculous and unheard of dichotomy you have there buddy.
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I actually did that distinction in the past.. then I grew up. :)
Guess I just learned that the implementation of the language matters more than the language itself.
This probably overlooks embedded development (Score:5, Insightful)
But RedMonk's methodology involves studying the prevalence of each language on both Stack Overflow and GitHub, a correlation which "we believe to be predictive of future use, hence their value.
I know smartphones are all the rage, but there are tonnes of old school embedded devices out there and tonnes more still being developed. By old school I mean run on some embedded-type CPU or ASIC, run some custom OS, and only have a C compiler available (probably the one written by the team that bootstrapped development of the initial version of the device).
I doubt that developers working on those devices regularly post their code to GitHub and fairly positive that not many of them would post to StackOverflow asking how to make a flubord close with a genie effect on Ubuntu using clang when there is a PS/2 mouse connected.
A methodology that relies on GH and SO posts is likely to be strongly biased toward new web-based and open source development.
Re:This overlooks the intent (Score:2)
"No claims are made here that these rankings are representative of general usage more broadly. They are nothing more or less than an examination of the correlation between two populations we believe to be predictive of future use, hence their value."
There's a whole pile of disclaimers at the bottom of their list, this being one. So that's already addressed.
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They are nothing more or less than an examination of the correlation between two populations we believe to be predictive of future use
That sounds like an attempt to say "these are representative of general usage more broadly" without actually saying that.
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A methodology that relies on GH and SO posts is likely to be strongly biased toward new web-based and open source development.
Certainly. It's hard to believe that just looking at embedded development alone, C isn't some number of orders of magnitude larger than JS by almost any useful metric I can think of: number of different projects, number of project-users, number of lines of code written, number of lines of code executed, number of different architectures/platforms supported by the language, number of developer-hours, etc.
To put this in some kind of perspective, 50,000 lines is quite large for the front end of a modern web ap
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C isn't some number of orders of magnitude larger than JS by almost any useful metric I can think of: number of different projects, number of project-users, number of lines of code written, number of lines of code executed, number of different architectures/platforms supported by the language, number of developer-hours, etc.
Most definitely not.
The amount of C programmers on the world is what? A million perhaps? I doubt it actually, probably less than half a million.
Basically every other mainstream language
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Well, I don't have hard data to hand, but it's obvious that you're dramatically underestimating the scale of the embedded software industry. Don't feel bad, almost everyone who's never worked in it does.
The reason I say it's obvious is that you have the common misconceptions that Linux-based systems represent the majority of embedded development and that most embedded software could be written by a single person. While Linux is certainly gaining popularity for some larger and more powerful devices today, th
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C isn't some number of orders of magnitude larger than JS by almost any useful metric I can think of: number of different projects, number of project-users, number of lines of code written, number of lines of code executed, number of different architectures/platforms supported by the language, number of developer-hours, etc. Most definitely not.
The amount of C programmers on the world is what? A million perhaps? I doubt it actually, probably less than half a million.
A single *country* has more than that.
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but 50,000,000 lines is quite small for all the firmware in a modern car.
You have got to be joking. The entire Linux kernel, including all the device drivers, is under 17,000,000. The space shuttle control software was less than 500,000 lines. (source [nap.edu])
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I'm not joking at all. The amount of firmware inside a modern car is insane.
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A methodology that relies on GH and SO posts is likely to be strongly biased toward new web-based and open source development.
Indeed. Back when langpop.com was still around, they collected data from as many different places as possible. Google search, the equivalent of Github at the time, book sales, job search sites, etc. The different sources had drastically different results, enough to say that selecting from any one of them (especially Github) is not representative.
Widely used != popular (Score:2, Insightful)
Is this actually measuring popularity, or just usage?
Just because something's used a lot, doesn't mean it's actually popular with the people who use it...
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If you are using c to solve trivial problems that have zero performance requirements then you are not a good engineer and are wasting your time and your employer's money.
Yes different, C is very "robust" because a native binary is insensitive to machine environments, no need to rely on the client's environment to change, which implies minimal install/"getting started" documentation, etc.
Coding in C is no more difficult than coding in js or any other language once you know what you're doing, it's just the extra build step in the test-debug cycle that chews up the development time.
Like every other choice we make in life there is a cost benefit equation as to what language
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It feels like I have spent more time in JS debugging weird things because I typo'd a variable or changed a method signature in one place but not the passed in objects in all usages than I have ever spent waiting on C compiles. And that's 2 years of JS and 15 of C.
This is probably because you can do other things wh
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or changed a method signature in one place but not the passed in objects in all usages
Learn to use an IDE?
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Pray tell, how is a JS IDE supposed to know that in the implementation for
foo( bar )
You changed the expectation of bar being a string to being an object containing a property that is a string?
I admit my original post was incorrect - in this case the function signature didn't change, but it would have if JS had types. Maybe I need to start looking more earnestly at Typescript.
Very sensitive to machine environments (Score:2)
a native binary is insensitive to machine environments
Good luck running a binary made for a Mac on any machine environment other than a Mac.
(Legally.)
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I had never heard of Darling, a Darwin program loader for Linux. That's a start. I may check every few months to see if there's progress toward running GUI applications.
So let me amend my claim: Good luck running a native iOS binary off an iPhone or iPad. Even the device simulator in Xcode is said to emulate a fictional Intel-based iOS device so that it can use an x86 VMM as opposed to a true emulator.
Depends on what "popular" means (Score:3)
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You're right that the only sane option is to use a language that 'compiles' into Javascript. TypeScript [wikipedia.org] supports static typing and might fit your bill.
Hopefully DART will get off the ground soon.
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You are mixing up static and dynamic typing.
JavaScript is type safe, except for the weird casting between numbers, bools, nulls and in some cases Strings.
CoffeeScrip e.g. adresses those issues.
If that were true... (Score:2)
...a correlation which "we believe to be predictive of future use, hence their value."...
If that is valid, I'm sure Redmonk has the historical data that supports the assertion.. Why not publish it?
.
I still believe IEEE more (Score:5, Interesting)
Clearly, IEEE has more experience and is more believable. (And yes, I am an IEEE member, but that does not really biais me.) The methodogy used by IEEE spectrum is public [1]. And it also takes stack overflow and git hub as indices. Though that is not the ONLY thing it uses.
There is a saying in data mining: I'd rather have more data than a better algorithm.
[1] http://spectrum.ieee.org/ns/IE... [ieee.org]
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Comments indicate the IEEE is not competent. (Score:2)
Here are some comments copied from the Top Programming Languages interactive web page [ieee.org] that seem to indicate that the IEEE is not competent:
"Antonio Campos - 5 days ago -- middle of 2016 and people still thinking HTML is a programming language"
"RM1948 - 5 days ago -- Arduino is not a language but a development environment. It s
Security VS user friendliness (Score:2)
Regardless of the 'distinction' between scripting and programming languages, the continued use of Java and Flash presentation just points out how low on the scale of things security falls.
Granted I am a hardware guy and not a programmer I think security should rate nearly as high as general user friendliness.
Thanks for the info (Score:2)
I did realize it was a combination of JVM and applets but as I stated I am no where near a competent programmer but rather a hardware tech. I took several programming classes while in college so I understand 'in theory' what one should be able to do as a programmer. I work with analysts and systems engineers to design, install and configure CPU's/routers/SAN storage devices and OS's but I would be hard pressed to do anything approaching programming. I'm competent enough to shell script and make use of CRON
The hammer or the screwdriver? (Score:4, Insightful)
Programming languages are all general-purpose in some important senses, since they're all Turing Complete, but in practice they tend to have rather well-defined contexts and purposes. In a lot of ways I think asking "Which is the most popular programming language?" is a lot like asking "Which is the most popular hand tool?". The question doesn't make a lot of sense without some context.
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"Which is the most popular hand tool?".
I'll be honest, I really like the hammer. What do you think? I have to admit I have an emotional attachment to wirestrippers that came after I could finally afford them, after spending years trying to (painfully) strip wires with a knife as I was growing up........
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YAUPLR (Score:3)
Yet another useless programming language ranking. First they do not define what most popular means. The text suggests it means the most used language. In embedded systems it is C and C++. As embedded systems are a super widespread typenof system a lot of programmers are required. Hence it is very popular there. In contrast JS is only relevant for UI and lately small nodejs services. Most stuff in the internet runs different engines. Counting projects on github only shows the number of free or at least fancy projects , but no embedded company or other larger SW company is storing their intellectual property in the US and with an external service.
And crayons are the most popular painting tiool. (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder why.
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"Crayola's methodology involves studying the prevalence of each art type on both refrigerator doors and classroom windows, a correlation which "we believe to be predictive of future use, hence their value."
suspect assumptions and conclusions (Score:2)
Sad state of affairs (Score:2)
That the ugliest language is the most popular due to an odd set of circumstances.
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I do not think the circumstances are odd. Unless you consider it odd that capitalism favors the least competent (and hence cheapest) group of developers for most work. As soon as we have liability for code that is not up to professional standards, things are going to change. Of course, we will need to have a number of larger catastrophes to get there first. (As for FOSS: That one is simple: Open and free the source or be liable for anything bad it does....)
Not all developers are the same (Score:2, Insightful)
For the semi-competent, you have Java. For those that do not manage that level, you have JavaScript. For those that actually understand what they are doing, you have a large faction that prefers C and the rest is all over the place.
Just remember that we have far too many "developers" and most of them are bad at it. This thing is a Pyramid with the largest and least competent group being at the bottom with JavaScript.
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The competent will choose a language, not just based on personal preference or their skill level, but on what makes sense to use for the task at hand. At this point in my career, it's the project that gets me excited and not working with any particular language. I can be equally happy coding in C, Go, Java, Python, or even javascript. I'm not m
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And what the F*** are you smoking that you think JavaScript is more powerful than pretty much any other modern programming language?
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
About matches my experience (Score:3)
I've been looking to return to programming after years of doing firmware development, doing some IT work since, and now going back to school to update my skills. In order to see what I should focus on in school I've been looking at what languages are seen most often on job postings. In no particular order I see JavaScript, SQL, PHP, Python, and Perl at the top of my list. There's some demand for C++, C#, and Ruby. I'll see some demand for things like R, Matlab, and some statistical tools, but those seem to be jobs at the local university which should not be a surprise.
What I've figured out is that there is demand for people that can program web based applications. This means JavaScript and its various libraries, PHP, Python, and perhaps some Java and C++. If we are stretching the programming languages a bit then we get into things like HTML, XML, CSS, and other markup languages. Looking at the programming course I have this fall I see it will be taught using Java, Ruby, or Scala. I don't recall even seeing Scala until today so this could be interesting.
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Should have been done long ago (Score:2)
It would have happened over a decade earlier [ideosphere.com] if the DotCon bubble burst hadn't replaced most of the old guard in Silicon Valley with H-1b's from India trained in Java.
COBOL (Score:2)
Let us remember that from 1960 to about 2001, the language would have been COBOL not Javascript. None then or now believe it was all that great of a language. For javascript all I can say it is that it is a great write once, take forever to figure out what it is doing language. I'm not to thrilled with prototypes.
The one thing I find really surprising is that C ranks over C++. Sure there are some nasty things that can be done in C++, but I recently looked at some C code. The majority of it was replicating b
As a C programmer (Score:2)
Engineering by popularity? (Score:2)
Hi! Since when did an engineer pick the right tool for the job by popularity? Totally irrelevant survey only good for click-bait.
Poor methodology (Score:2)
The flaw in this methodology is that it assumes the fly-by-night trend languages of today will survive the test of time simply because their adoption rate is high today. The reality is mos
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Javascript is a "programming language"?
Yes, it is.
So when do we see an OS written in Javascript controlling all aspects of a pc's motherboard, processor etc?
Irrelevant to whether something is a programming language or not.
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Irrelevant to whether something is a programming language or not.
Nevermind that you in theory could do all of that with javascript. It would be inefficient as hell of course, but efficiency doesn't make or break a programming language, otherwise assembly would be the only game in town.
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It would be inefficient as hell of course ...
Most modern JavaScript engines JIT compile to extremely efficient machine code.
It is very close to C and other "close to the machine" languages.
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It is very close to C and other "close to the machine" languages.
Getting closer all the time, and still never quite there.
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Most modern JavaScript engines JIT compile to extremely efficient machine code.
It is very close to C and other "close to the machine" languages.
The Javascript (and Java) JITTers are marvels of engineering, but they're not close to C, C++ or FORTRAN in performance. Sure on some micro benchmarks, it's possible to come very close, but those tend to be pretty simple for-loops.
The problem is aliasing. FORTRAN bans it, C and C++ allow it in some cases and in other very important cases disallow it but declare it's
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Javascript is a "programming language"?
Yes, it is.
So when do we see an OS written in Javascript controlling all aspects of a pc's motherboard, processor etc?
Irrelevant to whether something is a programming language or not.
Some fool is bound to write a virtualization system in Javascript one of these days. Then they can implement an operating system written in Javascript on their virtualization system.
Is there a hardware Javascript engine?
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Some fool is bound to write a virtualization system in Javascript one of these days.....
A determined fellow did [bellard.org] (well nearly, it's a PC emulator in JS - that runs Linux)
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Why do you think that's impossible?
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Register PIO in a language without raw pointers may be difficult.
There are forks of JavaScript engines that addresses that [espruino.com], with calls like peek() and poke(). Or you can roll your own library for node.js
But when accessing hardware without a huge overhead, there really aren't many better ways of doing it than C and assembly. (And BCPL for you remaining Amiga aficionados out there.)
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You need some assembly language to get the processor from real mode into protected or long mode. Therefore, by your "all aspects" definition, C is not a programming language.
Re:No (Score:4, Informative)
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How the hell is CSS a programming language?
CSS 3 selectors are a Turing-complete language (and, in WebKit at least, have their own JIT in the browser). Of course, using it as such would be completely insane...
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Javascript, OK. PHP yes, and Java Yes. How the hell is CSS a programming language?? Is a conf file a language? If writing a document (like HTML) is a language, then Excel is probably the most popular, followed by MS Word.
I do think CSS and Excel (and to a point, HTML) are programming languages, but only as very domain specific ones. I never grasped that Excel was indeed a DSL until I got familiar with Fowler's book and writings on the subject. Excel is the only one that could stand on its own whereas CSS and HTML are just declarative non-turing-complete DSLs for configuration and rendering.
So I don't have an issue seeing CSS and HTML as programming languages (albeit with extremely narrow applications.)
I do agree with yo
misleading headline (Score:5, Insightful)
it's a case of misleading headlines (yeah, shocking)
as others have pointed out, the authors don't make any claim that their list represents the 'most popular languages', just that those languages enjoy particularly high visibility on two specific platforms - github and stack overflow.
you have a virtually infinite number of ways to count "popularity", some more useful than others, but each of them inevitably somewhat arbitrary.
last time I checked, oracle claimed java to be the world's most popular language, and by the way they measure it, they must be right.
heck, you could instead count each web pageview with one line of js as instance of 'program execution', count the big number and have a different winner. don't take it too seriously.
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Popularity on Stack Overflow indicates people having problems using the language not already addressed in other forums - older languages like C will suffer here.
Popularity on GitHub indicates people wanting to share their code, usually in open-source form... not the best indicator of what people who work for a paycheck are using.
Where do "languages" like LabView and PLC fit into this scheme? I mean, if they're tracking TypeScript...
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You'r going to find very little COBOL code on GitHub, despite it still being commonly used in large businesses.
I also think GitHub measurement may be more indicative of the ecosystem of a language; it's common in Javascript to have use many small single-purpose plugins (and plugins for plugins) rather than all-encompasing libraries, which means there'll be many more projects for Javascript than a language where the ecosystem tends towards libraries.
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The headline for the same data could read, "JS is the hardest programming language" lol
Just because people on stack overflow need help, doesn't automatically mean it is popular; or that the people whose questions are being counted as popularity even like it.
Github is perhaps a better data source, but still problematic. I know in my case, most of code that goes to github is in different languages than most of my code overall. Very little of my C goes there, for example.
Should online applications have used X11? (Score:2)
It's pretty lame comparing slow-as-mud + heavyweight scripting languages - even worse, ones that are remotely interpreted at the client, rather than actually run at the server -- with serious programming languages (and serious programmers.)
If you prefer that apps be "actually run at the server" and made in "serious programming languages", how would such apps display their results to the user? Would it be better if we were accessing applications through X11 protocol instead of through HTTP, HTML, CSS, and JavaScript? Or what protocol to access remote applications (with smaller view update granularity than the full page) would you prefer instead?
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I can't help it. I'm judging you. I can understand why someone has to use JS (I've been one of those on far too many occasions), but to actually identify it as your language of choice seems bizarre to me.
Re:JavaScript rules! (Score:4, Interesting)
JavaScript is the only class less, prototype based programming language in wide use.
// assuming length, src and dst are arrays declared somewhere // semicolon optional
So it is an extremely powerful language with arguable a bit painful syntax (to exploit those features).
On the other hand, as long as you don't really want to dig deep into it, it is just like C without types.
for (/* int */ i=0; i < length; i++) {
dst[i] = src[i];
}
90% of JavaScript just looks like C, so no idea why people hate it.
OH!! You mean the integration in the browser? Yeah ... never did any browser side JS, and likely never will.
You know, in JS you can "call" a function just like in C. ... an instance of the "class" the function is describing, with nested functions (unlike C ;D ) as methods.
But you can also "new" it, and have an object
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I had a machine with 512M, but could have gotten by on 128M. On that 128M machine my broswer might use 10% of the memory not 60%, and only small amounts of CPU time.
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There was a time when we get by without electricity at all. Commerce, theater plays and even sites like "the local pub" worked real-time at life-like quality.
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Javascript is the necessary evil, as you need something to execute code to run more complex webpages.
Java on other hand is the unnecessary evil people still use due being trendy.
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If it's just a web "page", a document for reading as opposed to an actual web application, you don't need updates smaller than a full page. And if you don't need fine-grained updates, you don't really need JavaScript. Instead, the server can create the final DOM, serialize that DOM to HTML, and send the HTML to the browser. Form prevalidation can use the new HTML5 input types.
Re:JavaScript rules! (Score:5, Funny)