Oracle Will Officially Appeal Its 'Fair Use' Loss Against Google (arstechnica.com) 99
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The massive Oracle v. Google litigation has entered a new phase, as Oracle filed papers (PDF) yesterday saying it will appeal its loss on "fair use" grounds to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. For a brief recap of the case: after Oracle purchased Sun Microsystems and acquired the rights to Java, it sued Google in 2010, saying that Google infringed copyrights and patents related to Java. The case went to trial in 2012. Oracle initially lost but had part of its case revived on appeal. The sole issue in the second trial was whether Google infringed the APIs in Java, which the appeals court held are copyrighted. In May, a jury found in Google's favor after a second trial, stating that Google's use of the APIs was protected by "fair use." Oracle's appeal is no surprise, but it will be a long shot. The four-factor "fair use" test is a fairly subjective one, and Oracle lawyers will have to argue that the jury's unanimous finding must be overturned. There are various ways a jury could arrive at the conclusion that Google was protected by fair use. The case will go back to the Federal Circuit, the same appeals court that decided APIs could be copyrighted in the first place. That decision overruled U.S. District Judge William Alsup, the lower court judge, and was extremely controversial in the developer community. However, the same decision that insisted APIs can be copyrighted clearly held the door open to the idea that "fair use" might apply. Unless Oracle pulls off a stunning move on appeal, its massive legal expenditures in this case will be for naught.
Re: Larry Ellison and Donald Trump (Score:1)
I think you mean if either of them win everyone loses
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Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:3)
There must be Oracle employees who actively post here at /..
What do you think of this? What should the rest of us think of you and your employer?
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Re: Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:1)
They all use Windows and don't visit /.
Well, maybe some of the Solaris folks still stop by.
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The standard Oracle desktop is Linux, except where appropriate.
Still hate Oracle?
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Yes, that is the rule as it was when I worked there.
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Still is the policy. Hence except where appropriate. I do native iOS development. This means I'm on OS X hardware. Our group has a variety of iOS devices for real-world testing and we use the simulators as well.
Most other people I know personally are on Linux. A couple on Windows because they work on Windows apps & services.
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They probably mean an environment that can be described as "GNU/Linux" or "X11/Linux", such as the Oracle Linux operating system [oracle.com]. The repeated proposals to use Android as a substitute for GNU/Linux, especially prior to Android 7.0 "Nougat" when support for multiple windows was finally included as a standard feature, make me think RMS was right in drawing the distinction.
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False. As an ex-employee of Oracle I can tell you that statement is categorically false. They do use Linux very heavily but employees can choose their own OS - most developers use macbooks and linux desktops, most non-tech staff use Windows.
Re:Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:5, Interesting)
If you're willing to judge ~130,000 employees based on your perception of what's right or not, it wont mean much.
Some of us are doing pretty cool stuff at Oracle and if you can navigate large corporations (there _Was_ a learning curve when we got acquired in 2001), it's actually a great place to work at. Most of us have families that live well because Oracle treats it's employees right, unlike some corporations where some friends of mine work.
The employees, such as coders (as yours truly), dont get to decide what judicial courts decide, nor where Oracle points it's legal department. So unloading your frustration at it's employees wont accomplish much.
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You are an idiot.
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1. IN SOME RANDOM SLASHDOT AC'S IMAGINATION...
Me: "This company is engaged in something that I'm catching a lot of flak for, so I'm going to need more money to make up for that, or I'll walk."
Boss: "Well, Zontar, that's just not right that you're taking so much heat for something you're personally not involved with in any way whatsoever. Here's a 30% salary increase to make you feel better."
2. MEANWHILE, IN THE REAL WORLD...
Me: "This company is engaged in something that I'm catching a lot of flak for, so I'
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Can you tap the shoulder of somebody in the UX department and tell them to do a better job please? For all of our sakes. Virtually every oracle program I've ever used is extremely annoying to work with, and it has more to do with a crappy UI than anything else (well that and overall slowness with some applications.)
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Similar experience here, except that we got acquired a few years after you were.
I don't know about your group, but in ours (MySQL), we are treated quite reasonably. Both individuals and teams are given a LOT of freedom to work as they see fit. As long as you produce a positive result, they don't really care, and I can personally attest that they do indeed reward productivity and good work.
And I'm pretty sure that most if not all of us find the legal drama eminently cringeworthy, and hope that sense (and not
Re: Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:1)
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Yes, Oracle does treat it's people well - I'll grant them that. I used to say of my time there: "They make you sell your soul, but at least they pay well for it".
Re:Oracle employees, show yourself (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm an ex-oracle employee. I resigned in protest over this lawsuit when it was first launched.
Oracle will appeal (Score:1)
Will he now?
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Given corporations have legal personhood, the expression is valid.
If it is a movie reference, which one were you going for, because matrix is "the oracle" and my brain isn't coming up with any others because it's friday afternoon here.
Re:Oracle will appeal (Score:5, Informative)
The acronym "Oracle" expands to "One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison".
Not appealing would be a failure towards investors (Score:2)
So long as there's an appeal process, such as higher cours, it would be dump for any company to not pursue it.
Eg, look at Apple having, after a third round, finally reversed the appear court in the federal court, the Samsung lawsuit on their slide-to-unlock paten which they stole from their own client. How Effin nasty is that? Because of Samsung, Apple had to remove the slide-to-unlock from iOS 10 screwing with everyone (I hate unlocking my thumb id phone with the stupid click-through). Apple got the decisi
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Probably. I dont know enough about administration or legal to assert this but I sure would be ticked if my investment portfolio administrator didn't pursue all venues possible for ensuring the portfolio's profitability. And those guys (funds manager) are probably the one who would sue a company for now appealing such a case.
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I daresay that if you tell your shareholders "We are dropping the case because it would be extremely expensive to pursue and the odds of victory are exceedingly slim" then your shareholders don't have a any cause of action to sue you. By not wasting money on a lawsuit you probably can't win you are protecting shareholder value.
To sue Oracle for dropping this case now would be akin to suing your fund manager for not investing your retirement savings in lottery tickets. Sure you lost out on the possibility of
Who really cares? It won't change a thing. (Score:2)
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Of course, considering that Google only cribbed the API, and not the code implementing it, there's really only one main benefit they get from Java's API - one that nothing else delivers: Java developers.
Yes, they could clone another language library, but few languages have the popularity of Java, and C++ doesn't have a standard library with anywhere near the scope of Java's, even if they could entice "close to the metal" developers to write code for their emulator instead.
And for most languages I suspect th
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They should just clone python. It's developer base is not *that* far behind java, it is a much nicer language to code in and because the original language is under the LGPL there is no risk of being sued for an alternative implementation (indeed several alternative implementations already exist - ironpython for example).
Distributing a work in progress is illegal (Score:2)
One practical problem with an alternative implementation of the Java platform is that a developer is forbidden to distribute an incomplete, work-in-progress implementation to the public. Per the "License for the Distribution of Compliant Implementations" in the Limited License Grant of the Java Language Specification [oracle.com], only a complete implementation that "fully implements the Specification including all its required interfaces and functionality" and passes the test suite may be published. This forces all alt
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Renaming is no defense (Score:2)
So just don't call it Java.
That avoids trademark infringement, not copyright infringement. See Tetris v. Xio [slashdot.org], about a deliberately renamed video game workalike. In order not to infringe, it probably has to be as different from Java as C# is.
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Work-alikes are allowed. However, in the case you cite they also copied creative elements that are non-functional in terms of copyright, such as the size of the field and the shape of the blocks. Using pentominoes instead of tetrominoes would be non-infringing. The underlying game play would be the same, and it's not like they can copyright the rules of the game - the USPTO says that the actual rules cannot be copyrighted - they are facts. Only the expression of those rules (the words used to describe the r
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Using pentominoes instead of tetrominoes would be non-infringing. The underlying game play would be the same
That'd be like saying gridiron (American) football would play the same way with a soccer ball as it does with the present prolate spheroid.
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> it is a much nicer language to code in and because the original language is under the LGPL there is no risk of being sued for an alternative implementation (indeed several alternative implementations already exist - ironpython for example).
That wouldn't matter if Oracle gets their filthy hands on python. Remember when Java was released on the GPL? That alone should have vindicated Google.
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Python has never been dual-licensed, and there is no company Oracle can buy.
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And at this point I start doubting Google's fair-use defense. I fully agree that APIs are copyrightable, but that writing compatible systems and applications requires use of the API, so it's a functional necessity, and copyright is not intended to stop any functional use. However, if Android Java and regular Java are not intended to be used compatibly, the functionality argument goes away.
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Also, the gang of four are full of shit. You can take anything too far, and they are a great example of that. Their "design patterns" is a trap. It invites rigidity in design and implementation that gets in the way of doing the right thing. Same as Java's moroni
The only fascinating thing about this story... (Score:3, Insightful)
... is that I saw this all coming the moment Google announced they would use Java for Android. It was clearly obvious to me (and I assume anyone else actually paying attention) that Oracle had "open sourced" Java (without really open sourcing it) specifically as a patent litigation trap for such big companies as Google. Of course, Google doesn't like being told what to do so they called Oracle's bluff.
One or both of these companies is going to find out they've made a huge mistake. Either way, we all lose. Java always sucked, and, I feel, as evidenced by this, has primarily been used for evil rather than innovation.
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It could get even more epic. Open source is found to be incompatible with the US legal system.
A rush to the exit by brands to their more friendly tax shelters to keep selling globally and revised products back into the USA.
Re:The only fascinating thing about this story... (Score:4, Interesting)
How would that work? Open source is firmly grounded in copyright law - how could granting an extremely permissive, non-revokable license with clear and specific reciprocity demands possibly be found to run afoul of US law, without simultaneously destroying all other copyright licensing arrangements as well?
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Please back that up.
Inquiring minds want to know what kind of cool-aid you are drinking.
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Will the copyrights and patents be valid or will fair use win? The wider court role of a "four-factor "fair use" test"?
The way APIs could be/is/will be/can be copyrighted.
The news and summary is all in the linked arstechnica.com recap.
If its a win, its fair use for all.
Not a win, then some "fair use" test for US code? Doing programming in the USA just got more interesting. Code has to work and pass a final court test every time per product cycle?
Ano
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Patents have always been a threat to F/OSS, since we started to have software patents.
Copyright is not intended to restrict what you can do, and for most purposes APIs have to be used in order to do things. Java programs have to run on existing runtimes, and runtimes have to deal with Java programs. People use an API (which may or may not be copyrighted) to communicate, and should be allowed regardless of copyright. I believe that this is sufficient freedom to develop software with. If you see that c
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This is an appeal by Oracle lawyers to justify their own paychecks. It certainly hasn't shown that Open Source is incompatible with the US legal system.
Should you also say that because there are lawsuits related to health issues, "Medical care is found to be incompatible with the US legal system"? I'm sure I can find a
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You weren't paying THAT close attention-- it was Sun who open-sourced Java, not Oracle.
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This is not a patent case. Its a copyright case.
It was not Oracle who open sourced Java. It was Sun.
Oracle later bought Sun. They did not really get any worth from it. So now they use the normal way for those that can't innovate - they sue those that make money and hope they get lucky.
As for Java sucking - thats was mostly Microsofts doing; for having a version that was incompatible with the other versions.
We need a new award in the computing world (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe we could call it "The Darl". Oracle is winning this year's Darl award.
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And all this time I thought his [wikipedia.org] parents just didn't know how to spell when in reality they were just providing a prophetic acronym trying to warn the world of his coming threat.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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They should merge and become Orangeacle, The Bigly Data Company.
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They should merge and become Orangeacle, The Bigly Data Company.
Damn! I'd mod you up as Funny, but I just finished spending my mod points.
Re:Seems... (Score:5, Funny)
...then I guess Microsoft is the Hillary of the computer world.
Well connected and the darling of corporations, but a backstabber behind the scenes. And neither knows how to correctly do email.
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One
Raging
Asshole
Called
Larry
Ellison
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Since the rest of us are well aware that Oracle have and sell actual products? No, it's probably just you.
Should interoperability not exist? (Score:3)
Google DID rip Oracle off [...] and they should have to pay
Then how should interoperability with a platform implemented as copyrighted computer programs be achieved, other than through copying the interfaces needed to interoperate with other software developed for the platform? If you believe instead that one ought not to attempt to interoperate in the first place, then how does it benefit the public to give a platform's owner the power to chill interoperability through copyright law?
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The question is whether there is interoperation. If I write a Java program, or a Java runtime, I have to use the API so it can run with existing Java runtimes or programs, and I need the stuff to interoperate. Was Dalvik written with the intention of running regular Java programs on it? If so, it's being interoperable. If not, it doesn't have to use the Java API to accomplish anything, and Google used it to make Android Java more comfortable to current developers, which probably is a violation of copyr
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Was Dalvik written with the intention of running regular Java programs on it?
As I understand it, it was written with the intent of running existing pure-Java libraries, even if not their GUI front-ends.
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