Microsoft Releases Visual Studio 2017 (visualstudio.com) 195
Reader Anon E. Muss writes: Microsoft on Tuesday released Visual Studio 2017. The latest version of the venerable Integrated Development Environment supports a variety of languages (C/C++, C#, VB.net, F#, Javascript/Typescript, Python, etc.) and targets classic "Win32" desktop, Universal Windows Platform (UWP, also known as "Metro"), .NET, ASP, node.js, etc.). A "Community Edition" is available at no cost for individual developers and those working on open source software. "Professional" and "Enterprise" editions are available for corporate developers, at prices sure to shock whoever has to sign the check.
we know what vs is - did anything change? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:we know what vs is - did anything change? (Score:5, Informative)
VS2017 Release Notes [visualstudio.com]
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I only need to know two things:
a) Does Intellisense work yet?
b) How long until SP1?
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Ask a C++ developer sometime about Intellisense. We're using VS 2013 (I'd love to be on 2015, but not all of our third-party library suppliers are there yet), and Intellisense mostly works, if you don't mind taking a ten-second break now and then.
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a) yes, it always has.
I can tell you don't write real programs.
Intellisense has never worked on any of my C++ projects. I've been using Visual Studio/Visual C++ since version 5.0 (mid 1990s, I believe).
At best it just means the code is full of red squiggles. At worst you'll be restarting Visual Studio several times per day to try and clear the intellisense cache.
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Linux support for VC++ is mentioned seems pretty big. [microsoft.com]
Also a mac version is in preview and better Android and IOS development with Xamarin is included.
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This is a technology site, not buzzfeed. The summary should be mostly change logs.
Re:we know what vs is - did anything change? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have to ask, the changes probably don't matter to you.
Fantastic point. All news is dumb because if it were important to us, we would already know it.
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I notice they finally added simple refactoring capabilities, like "Extract Function," so you know, they're making progress: soon they might catch up to Eclipse.
If you're just now noticing that, you're way behind the times. This has been built into Visual Studio since at least VS2005 [microsoft.com].
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When various features were introduced, and how well they work, depends on whether you're using C++ or C#.
Is it that expensive? (Score:2)
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for individuals, startups, or open-source development, it's free.
$500 is Shocking??? (Score:5, Informative)
The Professional version is $500 (license, not subscription):
https://www.visualstudio.com/v... [visualstudio.com]
That seems very reasonable.
Enterprise is quite a bit more ($6K for new, $2.6K to renew), but it is part of the MSDN Enterprise (previously Ultimate I believe, that's what my license is called at this time), you get access to almost everything MS has ever made (want Windows 3.1 or DOS 6, it's there, want enterprise SQL Server, it's there).
Here's the link to the prices:
https://www.visualstudio.com/v... [visualstudio.com]
Re:$500 is Shocking??? (Score:5, Insightful)
It never ceases to amaze me how, despite the fact that the majority of us on this website make our money in tech or software, the idea of charging money for those services is revolting to some.
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And this is just for desktop development. I can't imagine what most people here would say about automotive/aerospace, embedded toolchains. Nothing opensource comes close. The money is still cheaper than engineering time.
Simulink Embedded Coder [mathworks.com], VXWorks [wikipedia.org], Green Hill INTEGRITY RTOS [wikipedia.org], ByteCraft eTPU compiler [bytecraft.com], Ashware eTPU compiler [ashware.com], Vector CANape [vector.com], and on.
That doesn't even touch on the cost of development boards.
Re:Coumminty edition is FREE! Not crippled (Score:5, Informative)
The community edition is not the crippled express editions. You can even make professional software with it too. THe only difference is the MSDN subscription and corporate Team Foundation features for teams and groups.
THe Community Edition even comes with Git and Git tools to use for things like Github.
So why is everyone whining? Things are not free to make and like Redhat there is CentOS for those who do not need enterprise support but is there for those that do.
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ANd yes replying to myself I also want to address the grand parent for things like SQL Server.
If you want the full thing go to www.technet.com and download it? It timebombs after 180 days but MS allows you to run it and Windows Server Enterprise editions free for non production or business use for IT professionals in virtual or stand alone machines. The Community Edition comes with SQL Server Express but I downloaded both the SQL Server for Linux 2016 and the regular win64 SQL Sever 2014 and Server 2012 R2
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While I've seen it before, I do think your .sig explains Life, The Universe, and Everything.
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You're making the assumption that these are professional people. The kind of Slashdot user who posts things like "Micro$haft sucks, most evil company ever" never makes it beyond the helpdesk or entry-level dev jobs in most companies. Their opinion is literally worthless to the company; they don't rise to become decision makers or budget holders, let alone C-level. So, while they seethe in their cubicles, their boss' boss' boss' boss' boss' boss signs an enterprise agreement with Microsoft and announces Visual Studio 2017 will be deployed to devs within the company.
People with a functioning brain don't expect software to be open source any more than they expect open-source cars, food, clothes, etc. Hell, pretty much all chip designs are closed source, as is pretty much all BIOS code - what's the point of being smug about a FOSS software stack if your hardware is proprietary?
FOSS' primary advantage is it incentivises companies to not act like buttholes - if the company's going off the rails, some random guy can fork the project and it gains traction. If they don't patch a security flaw, some guy forks it. It doesn't guarantee better quality code or better project management...indeed, some of the most poorly managed software projects of the last 10 years (Ubuntu, Firefox, Gnome, systemd) have been FOSS.
You know back in 2000 when Slashdot was young I was one of those guys who went into a job fair. I told one hiring IT manager that I only like free as it's the best and he rolled eyes and looked back. I said something similiar but less direct to the next hiring manager and he just smiled like I was retarded.
After that incident I questioned everything I read here and assumed corporate America didn't get it! Later on years later I realized it was ME who didn't get it! :-) A wife, bills, and tired of reinstall
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People with a functioning brain don't expect software to be open source any more than they expect open-source cars, food, clothes, etc. Hell, pretty much all chip designs are closed source, as is pretty much all BIOS code - what's the point of being smug about a FOSS software stack if your hardware is proprietary?
Being able to change things you don't like, especially if you are a developer, duh. I've patched dozens of projects including my OS, userland and kernel. I wouldn't be able to do that on closed source software. I don't care about the philosophical bullshit your straw man is made of.
If, as a developer, it has never occured to you to modify your tooling, then there's something fundamentally wrong with you.
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I'd assume that is because the cost to do so outweighs the gains. Rewiring a motor that's already performing as specified is both pointless and a major pain in the ass.
Adding a little hack to existing software? No problem at all.
Re:$500 is Shocking??? (Score:4, Funny)
$500 is Shocking???
The submitter is probably measuring that in Ramen noodles while being a squatter on campus like his idol, because software wants to be like, free, man. And I'd show him our SQL Server Enterprise bill, but I fear he'd go into cardiac arrest. For us Visual Studio is just a rounding error for SSIS/SSAS/SSRS development.
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This.
And if you think SQL Server licensing is bad for your health, do not under any circumstances look at licensing BizTalk.
But really, for your sanity as well, don't use BizTalk. ("Ha ha, ho ho, hee hee," I say with a crazy look in my eye...)
I'm petty sure all the SAP people are simply rolling their eyes right now.
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I know the business guys use SAP here and no doubt it is expensive. Not sure how much though. I look after the process automation software in a pharmaceutical company, and the annual licensing of just our tech support is enough to buy a house. A big house. In a good neigborhood. And that is cheap compared to initial purchase of our software. Engineering licenses alone are something like 15K per seat.
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Agreed. Submitter should think about it this way. How much per-year does a typical programmer earn? Does $500 or even $6K for a perpetual license software for a tool said developer will probably use every day for several years sound expensive? It's stupidly inexpensive, relatively speaking, to the total cost of that programmer's general overhead.
It's a decent chunk of money for an individual developer, but then again, they can simply use the Community Edition for free.
Re:$500 is Shocking??? (Score:4, Informative)
Does this mean I can get Visual Studio 2016 for a cheaper price now since it is considered old and obsolete?
what about VS 2015 or older? Cheaper is better.
There is no VS2016. As for VS2015 I doubt you can even buy it now unless you get through an MSDN subscription.
But anyway for 100% of non-corporate usage the community editions handle everything you can throw at them and are free. The Pro only starts to make sense when you want to tie into a Team Foundation Server in a corporate environment.
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You can still buy the old versions, but they cost the same as the new version.
People buy additional licences when they have old projects that they need to work on and don't want to go through the hassle of upgrading them to the latest Visual Studio version. It's actually pretty common with all sorts of software - I have to maintain stuff that only builds on a virtual XP machine with ancient version of MPLAB and a HISOFT compiler.
CAD packages are the same, people keep old versions installed to open ancient f
Re: $500 is Shocking??? (Score:2)
The software will run on a consumer grade i5 Dell desktop that you can buy at Walmart for $499.
Sounds great. (Score:2)
Now if they would just make it standards compliant and add basic endian macros, it would be even greater!
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You're in luck: https://twitter.com/StephanTLa... [twitter.com] - "We’re planning to ship most C++17 features in VS 2017 updates. No ETAs yet, but we’re working on them as a top priority."
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Features are great but standard compliance is what I'm interested in. That means getting all the nitty-gritty details right so that standards compliant code works with their compiler instead of whining about errors that don't exist.
Comment removed (Score:3)
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I'm using C++14 right now, for free, using GCC.
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Last I looked, most of C++14 is in VS 2015. VC++ does lag annoyingly behind g++ and clang in standards conformance, but it catches up to the standard eventually.
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VC++ does lag annoyingly behind g++ and clang in standards conformance, but it catches up to the standard eventually.
Wow, that must suck. Meanwhile, I have two great compilers, gcc and clang, that both do a great job of tracking the standard and, by all appearances, are just generally better than VC++. For free.
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It's great that those of us who just want C and C# without all the web and SQL shit can get that now.
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How do I turn the telemetry off this time? (Score:5, Informative)
In the last VS I had to add a compiler option [geeks3d.com] to stop you from sneaking your snooping crap into my code, what is it going to be this time?
Yours,
An Ex-VS user.
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We work on a network which is isolated from the internets. No telemetry.
Re:How do I turn the telemetry off this time? (Score:5, Insightful)
And it's just me who wonders why they add something like this, without any documentation of the calls whatsoever, and only admit it sheepishly when we basically find them with their hand in the cookie jar?
If you add calls me my binaries, I sure as FUCK expect you to tell me up front. If not, tell me one good reason why I should EVER trust your compiler again.
Privacy policy (Score:2)
Does anyone know if they've fixed the privacy concerns about the Community edition yet?
Last time I checked, there were multiple inter-related privacy policies that seemed to apply, but between those and the general terms it seemed clear that they could upload more-or-less anything (including, say, your code) through their telemetry processes. You also needed a Microsoft account to even continue using the IDE after a few days.
This sort of nonsense simply shouldn't be necessary in real world development tools
FYI: No ISO download (Score:4, Informative)
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The offline installer process has worked fine for me for the RC.
It actually seems to be working better with the officially released version.
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Expect it to take a long time though: So far it has downloaded 10GB of files and has >3300 top-level folders. No progress indication. :-(
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FYI: Final result, without using --lang, is ~16.3GB (17,595,078,265 bytes) and 4,606 files.
Visual C++ for Linux! (Score:4, Interesting)
No I am not making this up either [microsoft.com]. Also a beta version of Visual Studio for Mac is available too as well as better Android and IOS support. VS since 2015 also comes with Java and Android emulators as well via Hyper-V.
MS is getting quite serious about being cross platform [microsoft.com]
New Bollywood twist on the old song .... (Score:2)
Doesn't do C++x17 (Score:2)
It says 2017, but that might be misleading -- it does not fully support C++x14 (release notes say "better" x14 support. I'd like to see "full x14 compliance & support"). And they're a ways from full x17 support.
You get spoiled using Clang/LLVM
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It says 2017, but that might be misleading -- it does not fully support C++x14 (release notes say "better" x14 support. I'd like to see "full x14 compliance & support"). And they're a ways from full x17 support.
You get spoiled using Clang/LLVM
Apparently it has all the stuff added in C++14, what is missing is C++11 and C++98 support :D
See VS2017 Release Notes - C++ [visualstudio.com]
the compiler is complete for features added in the C++14 Standard. Note that the compiler still lacks a few features from the C++11 and C++98 Standards.
Re:Comes with CLANG (Score:2)
Go use Clang then? It is included in VS 2015 and VS 2017
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They are actively working on full C++ language support. But, 2017 doesn't mean C++17 - the release year has nothing to do with what it supports. The actual version is VS15 (VS 2015 was version 14).
MS is working on language support in two ways. First, they're trying to get two-phase lookup into their own frontend, but this has been very slow work because it doesn't even have an AST. Secondly, they're working on an Clang based frontend, which already has all the goodies. You can already install the Clang prev
Will the new Community Edition Be Uninstallable? (Score:2)
I once installed the 2015 Community edition on a Windows 7 system to check it out, kick the tires, etc.
It shit all over the system, there was no integrated installer (of the type there is when you install Microsoft Office) and it created 'restore points' for every single package and component that it pulled down and installed. I wanted to maybe check out some Visual Basic and C++ and dabble with it a bit.
It installed the whole SQL tool chain, server, etc. There really weren't any options for installing ju
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VS2017 has a new installer that's supposed to be better at managing components, languages, etc. I haven't tried it myself though, so I can't give a recommendation either way.
vim 8 (Score:2)
Meanwhile, in other news, Bram Moolenaar releases vim 8
VC - POS (Score:2)
The last time I installed VC (taking several hours)... it was not able to completely un-install. It wrapped itself around IE and popped up a debugger every time IE encountered a buggy web page.
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Re: 64-bit (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to get hired to create VFP layers to bridge SQL Server, AS400 and other databases to other apps because it just worked and worked well.
Wasn't a "real" Windows app in some UI ways, but when you needed to push/pull data to and from disparate back ends and integrate that data into COM based Outlook, Word, Excel and other Windows based applications, there was nothing better. We'd have C# guys come in and try to migrate VFP apps and they'd whine at the requirements to do things that are simple in VFP.
In 35 years of heavy relational database focused consulting on different platforms, nothing was as easy to use or as powerful as VFP.
So there!
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Thats because tthe object oriented features were buggy as all hell. I have never worked with a program that was as buggy as Foxpro.
Ignore the object oriented stuff - and it was rock solid. Its as if all the code Microsoft bought was solid, and everything they added was swiss cheese.
Re:64-bit (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft,
It's 2017 and Visual Studio is still 32-bit.
Sincerely,
Developers
My MSDN account shows both 32-bit and 64-bit are available for Professional.
Re:64-bit (Score:5, Interesting)
Try installing that "64-bit" version. Pretty sure devenv.exe is still going in "Program Files(x86)".
See: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-... [microsoft.com]
About **still** using msvsmon.exe to debug 64-bit in 32-bit VS...
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I code all my apps in COBOL
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I'm assuming you meant Visual Cobol...
https://www.microfocus.com/pro... [microfocus.com]
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A relative works at a bank programming exclusively in COBOL, and does quite well. That language will be around for quite some time.
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I code all my apps in COBOL
I app all my apps in Intercal.
Re:64-bit (Score:5, Informative)
The IDE is 32bit. The compile, debug, profile etc chain are 32bit and 64bit.
There is probably no reason for the IDE to be 64bit since it does not come even close to use enough memory to justify that. I have opened a few visual studio projects in 2017 and most of them don't use more than 200 MB. Resource usage so far is about half that of VS 2015.
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Given that Windows has more or less become defacto 64-bit with just a few 32-bit outliers on tablets, it doesn't make much sense to remain 32-bit any more.
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Your experience with other ides means Visual Studio should be 64 bit? Nope, sorry, try again. Everything else is 64 bit? Not a good justification.
Your scenario of lots of stuff doesn't make sense for VS. You would have a current config and target for each project, but that info is mostly for the build chain. The IDE loads some metadata, but you're more likely to run out of memory due to larger pointers than anything else.
There are good ones out there, but you haven't really made an effort here.
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The only reason to stay 32-bit is legacy dependencies, native extensions and so on. Staying there because 3.5GB is good enough for most people (where
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it's pretty easy to OOM Visual Studio with huge C# projects - the language service just brings it to its knees.
but for a file->new->todo-list product launch demo it works just fine. ship it!
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With the HPC C++ project I am working on even with the Intel tools loaded and after using stuff like Vtune and a debugger I am getting about 200MB of usage with VS2017 and under VS2015 I end up with about 500MB of usage. I also do not see a bunch of children processes. At least from my experience VS2015 is faster and lower resource usage than Eclipse or PyCharm.
At least with C++ the resource usage seems pretty minimal.
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+1
I am jealous. The 26 project solution (~6500 *.cs files, ~500 *.ts) I've got open in 2015 has Task Manager reporting ~1.5gb of use... granted ReSharper adds to some of the CPU/memory usage as well.
One of these weeks/months/years we will break up this monolith... until then, much CPU/clock time is spent paging things to disk rather than allow the process to grow to a size it would use more of my local machines memory.
With any luck I'll be able to throw 2017 on the machine this evening & give it a look.
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Re:64-bit (Score:5, Informative)
Unless you have specific use cases 64-bit doesn't always mean better. Most apps don't need the extra address space, and jumping to 64-bit means doubling your pointer sizes, which increases memory usage, reduces locality, and puts a larger burden on cache.
In VS's case they did the math and 32-bit was better. They've said this for years now. It's not a bad thing.
Re: 64-bit (Score:3)
It is not just about memory. Twice as many registers, 64 bit integers, faster syscalls and so on.
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I'm sure I read somewhere that the extra registers are part of the processor package and not limited to 64bit use - you just need a compiler which understands how to use them in 32bit mode...
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You might as well just have posted, "I don't know anything about software development."
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Ya, cause windows on windows is such a great idea for core applications.
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There's VS for Mac.
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I don't see what people find interesting or exciting about .NET Core -- it's just a rebranding of the compact framework with some additional supported platforms. Honestly, the entire point of it seems to be to try and entice people to use Azure for hosted stuff and only use small parts of the framework for desktop apps (pushing them towards the "Universal" appy-store apps and away from full Win32 style desktop).
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it's just a rebranding of the compact framework with some additional supported platforms
When one of the supported platforms is now Linux it's a pretty big deal. The people that are interested in web applications but like to work in a programming language that doesn't suck no longer have to be shoehorned into Ruby or, heaven-forbid, JavaScript.
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My main criticism of it is is that it's a pain in the ass to configure. Just like Atom, Brackets, Sublime etc., it does away with a proper settings dialog and configuration is by editing a JSON-esque file. Even if this makes sense for advanced configuration it really sucks just to configure some simple thing.
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Don't be ridiculous. That's what we have EMACS for.
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yes slashdot also showing ad for 21st development wares, MicroFocus Visual COBOL. Get it while it's hot!
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Instead of going "yay VS 2017" I googled "Couldn't install Visual Studio 2017 community edition"
SHIT TON of hits. More than a million. Sad, just sad.
Did you do a quick review of those reports to see how many of them were from Nov/Dec 2016, and referred to one of the release candidate versions?
You might want to note that release candidate installations are usually created for the purpose of discovering the problems which occur for different users with different environments etc, so they appear to have served their exact purpose, and enough people were enthusiastic about VS2017 to both participate as an early tester and post reports about their problems.