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Programming Education Wikipedia Apple Technology

Former Students Say Steve Wozniak's $13,200 Coding Bootcamp Is 'Broken' and Sometimes Links To Wikipedia (9to5mac.com) 135

Posted by BeauHD from the to-each-their-own dept.
Last year, Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak announced a coding program called Woz U that's designed with the goal of offering an affordable education. "Our goal is to educate and train people in employable digital skills without putting them into years of debt," Wozniak said last fall. "People often are afraid to choose a technology-based career because they think they can't do it. I know they can, and I want to show them how."

Now that a round of students have been through the 33-week program, a number of problems have appeared. Former student, Bill Duerr, called the program "broken," and that "lots of times there's just hyperlinks to Microsoft documents, to Wikipedia." 9to5Mac reports: "Duerr said typos in course content were one of many problems. So-called 'live lectures' were pre-recorded and out of date, student mentors were unqualified, and at one point, one of his courses didn't even have an instructor," reports CBS. CBS heard from over 24 current and former students and employees that reiterated Duerr's experiences. Instead of a quality program, Duerr said Woz U was comparable to an ultra expensive e-book: "'I feel like this is a $13,000 e-book,' Duerr said. While it was supposed to be a program written by one of the greatest tech minds of all time, 'it's broken, it's not working in places, lots of times there's just hyperlinks to Microsoft documents, to Wikipedia,' he said."

A former Woz U enrollment counselor said that at times he had to do things that didn't feel right: "Asked whether he regrets working for Woz U, Mionske said, 'I regret in the aspect to where they're spending this money for, it's like rolling the dice. [...] But on the reverse side, I have to support my family.'" According to Business Insider, Steve Wozniak said that he's "not involved" in the "operational aspects" of Woz U and doesn't know anything about the report this morning.
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Former Students Say Steve Wozniak's $13,200 Coding Bootcamp Is 'Broken' and Sometimes Links To Wikipedia More

Former Students Say Steve Wozniak's $13,200 Coding Bootcamp Is 'Broken' and Sometimes Links To Wikipedia

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  • "I know nothing!" (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 01, 2018 @08:35PM (#57408234)

    "I just cash the checks." - Woz

    • Re: "I know nothing!" (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 01, 2018 @10:28PM (#57408640)

      Let's see, half the shit doesn't work, a quarter of it is cribbed, most of the documentation is just links to online docs, and the people in charge can't be bothered to be directly involved and just cash their paychecks.

      Actually that perfectly describes how programming works in the real world.

  • Classic problem with computer science educators... (Score:3)

    by skam240 ( 789197 ) on Monday October 01, 2018 @08:36PM (#57408250)

    A classic problem with computer science educators. If you're good in your field your earning vastly less money teaching it than working it. Hopefully as the field matures more we get more semi-retirees teaching more but until then this will be a huge problem until we raise teacher's wages.

    I remember my first CS-ish teachers in high school in the 90's. They meant well but didn't have a fucking clue.

    • Re:Classic problem with computer science educators (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Potor ( 658520 ) <farker1@gmai l . com> on Monday October 01, 2018 @08:51PM (#57408326) Journal
      My CS teacher in 1985 was a math teacher who was into computers as a hobby, but into algorithms with a passion. One of my favourite classes ever, and it still influences me ...

    • I don't see it. There are a lot of teachers and the only ones I have seen are ones under employed struggling to get more hours. On all levels I see an overabundance of teachers competing for jobs. You might be surprised just how much many people value having half your life off work while getting paid a full time salary.

      And I think you overvalue the hotshot wiz kids of silicon valley and their ability at teaching others. The last thing students need is someone who has never struggled with a programming conce

    • On the other hand, we know how to scale (Score:4, Insightful)

      by raymorris ( 2726007 ) on Monday October 01, 2018 @10:03PM (#57408572) Journal

      That's true.

      It's also true that computer science and computer engineering people know how to scale things, through automation and other means. A very simple example is that a lot of courses in other fields still have quizzes and such grades by hand. Anyone with even half a clue about computer anything wouldn't generally do that. Open source software like Moodle provides very flexible quizzes which can adapt to the student. I'd rather watch a recorded lecture by one of the best in the field than a live lecture by just another guy.

      We CAN have high-quality education in this field, more efficiently, which means lower costs to students. The OMSCS at Georgia Tech looks promising, for example.

      We also have to remember that graduating school doesn't mean you stop learning. I study daily and I've been in the field professionally for 20 years. College should give us the background we need in order to build our knowledge in different areas, and the skills and interest to learn. If we expect to do an entire career worth of learning in 2-4 years we're going to be dissapointed every time.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by skam240 ( 789197 )

        This is all very nice but I'd like to see some data before I will even become anywhere close to believing kids will learn better via automation than via a human teacher.

        • The Georgia Tech online masters in computer science costs $7,000. Typical cost to sit in a lecture hall is about $50,000. That traditional method is going to have to be a whole lot better to make it worth costing seven times as much.

          I've been around computer science, in software engineering, for 20 years. One thing I've learned is that to earn well over your career, you need to keep learning, keep your skills up to date. What you learned ten years ago in school isn't enough, in fact it's mostly just backgro

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by skam240 ( 789197 )

            "The Georgia Tech online masters in computer science costs $7,000. Typical cost to sit in a lecture hall is about $50,000. That traditional method is going to have to be a whole lot better to make it worth costing seven times as much."

            Those costs are symptomatic of a fucked up system and not just the way things have to be. I mean, take a moment and do the math on a class full of students paying 50k each.

            "I've been around computer science, in software engineering, for 20 years. One thing I've learned is that

            • > Off topic. Keeping ones skills up to date is not the same as getting ones initial education

              Ones education in computer science is very likely done in either a teaching language or an outdated language. Stanford teaches C, C++, and assembly. What do you think is most important to your employability:

              One guy has a 10% better understanding of the details of C.
              The other guy can do useful work in Python, C#, or Rust.

              If the $50,000 to sit in class DID help students learn the class stuff better, it would hard

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by skam240 ( 789197 )

                So how are any of your points different from how software would teach people? Most commercial software has a terrible track record for being kept up to date.

                • I'm not sure I'm understanding your question. Can you rephrase it?

                  I'm curious about your situation - are you employed by a university, or do you have $60,000 in student loans that you hope are worth it? For some reason you seem VERY resistant to the idea that people, including myself, can and did learn this stuff without spending $60,000 on the basics, before starting work. I'm wondering why that could be.

                  Some of those expensive university comp sci courses used a book my mom wrote. She didn't have $60,000

                  • Re: (Score:2)

                    by skam240 ( 789197 )

                    What on earth does my occupation have to do with this and why should it have anything to do with the topic at hand?

                    To acknowledge your other more reasonable request, you state,

                    "Ones education in computer science is very likely done in either a teaching language or an outdated language."

                    Why would Georgia Tech's online masters course be any different?

                    • > What on earth does my occupation have to do with this and why should it have anything to do with the topic at hand?

                      Just curious why you're so intent on insisting that my life doesn't exist. It *seems* kinda like for whatever reason you have some vested interest in insisting that one can't learn this stuff without incurring massive debt. One reason a person might take that position would be if they were SELLING $60,000 degrees. Another reason would be if they had spent $60,000 they couldn't afford and

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by skam240 ( 789197 )

                      "Just curious why you're so intent on insisting that my life doesn't exist. It *seems* kinda like for whatever reason you have some vested interest in insisting that one can't learn this stuff without incurring massive debt."

                      Please show me where I have suggested that at all. You're fucking making shit up and I have zero patience for people who put words in my mouth.

                      "One reason a person might take that position would be if they were SELLING $60,000 degrees."

                      So the person who literally said "Those costs are s

                    • Well, whatever your situation or thoughts may be, the fact remains that I exist. Though I perhaps not as well known as Robert, my contributions to the technologies we're using to communicate right now are well documented. I didn't go $60,000 into debt to do so. I read the books myself, and did not pay a professor to stand in front of me doing the lecture. I DID watch a lot of well-known experts present information on video. These arw the facts. Your path is your path, but it's not the only path.

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by skam240 ( 789197 )

                      And yet you seem to think base and massively incomplete anecdotal evidence is meaningful in a scientific context. Oh wait, a complete education would have taught you how to properly process data. Score one for a proper college education.

                      I'm sure you got a good education in regards to core skills but your lack of understanding in the processing of societal data is showing.

                    • Btw, Bruce Perens is also a regular on Slashdot. He's had a pretty decent career, I'd say. Achieved quite a lot. One thing I don't think he's done is blow $60,000 putting the name of a fancy school on a piece of paper. He teaches university courses, he doesn't buy overpriced ones.

                      I'm sorry if you're struggling to pay your student loan debt or whatever, but your kids do NOT have to do the same thing. It's not required. I hope you don't tell them that it is. That would be really mean.

                    • And who the fuck is "Robert"? Your naming of names in a first name context makes you sound much more like a lame hipster than an intellectual. It literally diminishes whatever you're trying to accomplish by naming names. If you have to tell some one about your accomplishments they probably aren't as important as you want them to be.

                      And they certainly aren't so when you're make such absurd and uneducated claims.

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by skam240 ( 789197 )

                      Good for that lone individual. My comment about anecdotal data seems to have flown directly over your head.

                      "I'm sorry if you're struggling to pay your student loan debt or whatever"

                      Yet again with putting bullshit motives on me. You're unbelievable. If this information is so fucking crucial for you I have zero student debt and never had to accrue any meaningful amounts while getting my degree. I've literally showed you a way to get a degree in a much cheaper fashion than what you're going on about and still

  • I just rented out my name...not my fault.... I am not even there....where is mommy?

    Please.

  • Woz University, meet Trump University (Score:5, Funny)

    by Swave An deBwoner ( 907414 ) on Monday October 01, 2018 @08:43PM (#57408290)

    Sad, so sad.

    • Steve Wozniak said that he's "not involved" in the "operational aspects" of Woz U and doesn't know anything about the report this morning.

      What is he? A child or a teenage celebrity strapped for cash?

      He can't just lend his name to a supposed school and then not keep tabs on how it's doing and how it's doing it.

      At the very least, he needs to say he's looking into the allegations.

      • Hey, back off. At least he's not selling steaks. Yet.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Worryingly this is the same excuse Trump used for Trump University being a scam. Even if it's true it's not any better than having been involved at every step.

    • Sad, so sad.

      What's funny is that most can only see how one angle of that is funny, lol

  • Why pay $13,000 when you can learn yourself? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ashthon ( 5513156 ) on Monday October 01, 2018 @08:49PM (#57408318)

    I don't understand why anyone would pay that sort of money when you can buy a $50 book and learn from that. Not only is it much cheaper, but the ability to learn on your own is an essential skill for a programmer since programming requires continuous learning in order to keep your skills up to date. If you're unable to study yourself, and need information spoon fed to you, it's probably not the career for you.

    Besides, you don't learn to program in a boot camp. All you're going to learn is the basic language syntax and features, which you can learn easily yourself. To develop actual programming skills you need to write software. After writing an application you'll likely find there were many things that could have been done better and you'll be able to use those lessons in your next application, thus improving your skills.

    Programming boot camps are a con aimed at people who aren't actually interested in programming but who have seen the high salaries you can get as a programmer. Real programmers more than likely learned to program around age 13, and they did it because it interested them, not for the money.

    • Getting professionally critiqued on your code could have value. I would think a 12-hour course on syntax, resources, and pitfalls for a language could be interesting though. One per language, maybe you have beginner levels at 12 hours and difference levels that are only 3 hours or something.

      But experience doing is 90% of the game usually. Blind leading the dumb on self-study of new concepts is ineffective.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Not everyone can learn from reading a book, and sometimes having a place to go, or even just a webcast to watch, helps with the motivation to stick with it. For most people, learning from a book really only works if you have a certain base knowledge. If I pick up a book on Excel VBA programming, and I don't even know what a spreadsheet is, I'm going to have one hell of a time trying to learn anything, but if I already have a pretty good understanding of spreadsheets and programming in general, a book on Exc

    • 13k for the piece of paper (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      13k for the piece of paper

    • > you can buy a $50 book and learn from that.

      That's how I learned VHDL and Verilog (though it actually cost $100). One problem is the lack of degree for those using this approach. HR won't look at your resume unless you have that "college sheepskin" to prove qualification.

      - And even if you do have a degree, they won't give you the time of day if it's the "wrong" degree. I have an EE, tried dozens of times for a programming job in C++, but my resume never got past HR. (Some even said, "Sorry no, but we have some EE openings we could put you in.") It's kinda like typecasting.

      The "risk" of putting an EE in a Software engineer job is too great, so the HR people simply avoid the risk.

      HR is risk averse.

      • The highest quality code I've seen (at work) was written by an old whitebeard who had dropped out while studying English literature, then learned programming on the job back in the days of punchcards.

      • Are you being serious? Literally half my EE class just does software development now. The other half are in management. I don't think I know anyone who is doing anything requiring a soldering iron any more.

        CS people are not magic. There are good ones around but plenty of extremely rubbish ones as well. The benefit of EE grads tends to be that the course is quite hard (at my university it was the hardest engineering discipline to get into) so it tends to self-select for slightly better candidates.

        My guess is

    • Why read when you can donate? (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I don't understand why anyone would pay that sort of money when you can buy a $50 book and learn from that.

      Head First by O'Reilly:
      https://www.humblebundle.com/books/head-first-books

      Learn you some code:
      https://www.humblebundle.com/books/learn-you-some-code-books

      And I saved you $20.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Njovich ( 553857 )

      A good course provides you great tutors to teach and answer your questions, guides you through excellent books at a certain pace, has team and lab excercises to learn, gives you networking opportunities and gives you a useful certificate that you qualify to the standards set by the institute. Also it provides you a setting that motivates you to put real work in. I guess Woz U is not a particularly good example of that.

    • So when you have a question, how do you ask it to a book? Read it? How did you get that question in the first place? Contact the author? Ya, right. Students learn faster if there is someone available to answer questions, no matter how naive the question.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      You answered your own question there. The reason people go to boot camp is to get over that initial hurdle and get started. A book can work too, but it's often a lot easier to have someone show you the basics with a working system and then go from there on your own. Being able to ask fairly basic questions or have things that don't initially make sense to you clarified is very valuable.

      That's pretty much why school isn't just quietly reading books once reading itself is mastered.

    • But how does that benefit Woz?

  • students are just holding them wrong.

  • Woz U or Wazoo? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 01, 2018 @09:55PM (#57408524)

    I've heard of paying out the Wazoo, and now people are paying out the Woz U?

  • Woz U? Go Woz yourself. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    'Nuff said.

  • Steve Jobs said Woz was a lack-luster coder. He'd procrastinate and get distracted by some gee-whiz side project. For example, he never finished the floating point version of Apple BASIC he promised Jobs.

    • Didn't he write something with pen and paper from a jail cell?
    • Woz did the hardware for the Apple I and ][ using a few neat tricks. He also wrote its first DOS. But he has not done anything of consequence since.

    • What part of Apple technology did Steve Jobs develop again?

      • He made the code shiny.
      • Several things come to mind for me. One uncontested item is the beratement of hired workers, bravo Steve. Next is the gutting of entire departments for the 10 cents on the dollar H1B (temp?) workers. And a cap stone of unequaled pride; thinking that meditation would cure his diagnosed operable cancer.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Tablizer ( 95088 )

        What part of Apple technology did Steve Jobs develop again?

        Person X being lazy doesn't preclude Person Y from also being lazy. Overall, Woz seemed more motivated with hardware than software, though.

  • I would hope so. Because I got news for you: Even real programmers do not know everything and tend to forget stuff, but they know where to look things up. And maybe that was the purpose of linking to Wikipedia, to teach you how to use the Internet.

    Here is an example of my work yesterday.
    - For a webapp I had to find the greatest common divider for the width and height of an image. Had no idea how to do that, so I searched stackoverflow for "greatest common divider javascript" and found this helpful answer [stackoverflow.com]
    • When MIT was trialing 6.01, the first half of their replacement for 6.001-4, the first being the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs "Wizzard Book" course, this one using Python to drive robots, the official course material included a link to Wikipedia on differential equations, since it was quite possible people taking the course hadn't studied them in sufficient detail by the time this was needed in the course.
      • Looks like Woz-U needs some quality control. I followed the Hype trail of Woz-U to its web page source. Maybe Woz-U can create a fourth track called, "Quality Assurance?" This track mentors participants in the dark art called, "QA", by exploring TDD, and BDD Software Test Modeling. This would create a splinter group that could clean up the Woz-U environment; also.
  • Certainly not rare on /., but by proportion to Jobs's threads, can feel negligible. Anyone asserting Woz has not "done" anything since the ][ and its disk operating system has not read enough about what the ][ was (engineering wise) and should not forget Gates bought his DOS from a married couple. Gates wrote a BASIC, to be fair. But how did Gates' millions to commoditize education pan out?

    What's Woz done, lately? Pffft
    That da Vinci guy? He hasn't done crap since the Mona Lisa.

    The summary, for crying

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by mccalli ( 323026 )
      To be fair, you say 'Anyone asserting Woz has not "done" anything since the ][ and its disk operating system has not read enough about what the ][ was', which directly talks about the Apple II. You don't mention anything he's done since, but let's be quick - all of them were as an investor except one (Wheels of Zeus - tags to track your kids) and to my knowledge at least all of them have been commercial failures. Woz was a great 8 bit circuit board engineer, but so were many others. Remember Woz couldn't a

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mccalli ( 323026 )
        Apologies - paragraphs:

        To be fair, you say 'Anyone asserting Woz has not "done" anything since the ][ and its disk operating system has not read enough about what the ][ was', which directly talks about the Apple II. You don't mention anything he's done since, but let's be quick - all of them were as an investor except one (Wheels of Zeus - tags to track your kids) and to my knowledge at least all of them have been commercial failures.

        Woz was a great 8 bit circuit board engineer, but so were many othe
  • Woz not knowing about what is going on in an institution under his own name reminds me of the Simpsons episode when Krusty turns up at Kamp Krusty after the kids revolt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • not involved (Score:3)

    by sad_ ( 7868 ) on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @05:57AM (#57409500) Homepage

    "Steve Wozniak said that he's "not involved" in the "operational aspects" of Woz U and doesn't know anything about the report this morning."

    What i don't understand is why these people let others use their name and then produce a lousy product/service? Do this enough times and your good name will be gone and hard to restore to it's former glory.

  • "lots of times there's just hyperlinks to Microsoft documents, to Wikipedia"

    So it's just like working a real job, then? ;)

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