What Student Developers Want in a Job (techrepublic.com) 195
Organizations desperate for software engineering talent tend to follow similar plays when it comes to attracting student developers about the enter the workforce, including offering perks like free food, beer, and ping pong. However, student developers have a much stronger appetite for other workplace elements when making employment decisions, according to a Tuesday report from HackerRank. From a news writeup: The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are professional growth and learning (58%), work/life balance (52%), and having interesting problems to solve (46%), according to a survey of 10,350 student developers worldwide. These far outpaced compensation (18%) and perks (11%), which they view as "nice to haves" rather than deal breakers, the survey found.
For many student developers, a computer science degree is not enough to teach them the skills they will need in the workforce, the report found. Nearly two-thirds (65%) said they rely partially on self-teaching to learn to code, and 27% say they are totally self-taught. Only 32% said they were entirely taught at school, the survey found.
For many student developers, a computer science degree is not enough to teach them the skills they will need in the workforce, the report found. Nearly two-thirds (65%) said they rely partially on self-teaching to learn to code, and 27% say they are totally self-taught. Only 32% said they were entirely taught at school, the survey found.
When surveyed, people lie! (Score:5, Insightful)
The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are
I think you will find that this is "interview bullshit". It is the sort of answer that people think the ask-er wants to hear.
The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! (Score:5, Interesting)
The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
To some extent that is correct. But salary is a hygiene factor: if it's lower than expected it leads to dissatisfaction, but paying above expectation does not yield a lot of extra satisfaction. I look for different things in jobs now that I am older. But even when I was young, I usually picked lower paying jobs, with opportunities for learning and growing and interesting work, over crappy but well-paying jobs. And I've done a few crappy but well paying jobs as well... and it sucked. Pay is poor compensation for that.
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You have bills to pay. Employers bottom dollar pay. So money is everything. When you get paid beyond a certain amount, then and only then do you think, maybe I would like ping pong. But with student loans, rent / mortgage, family and what not, it's about getting paid.
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LMOL first define what you compensation is then tell people it's not about the money. You have bills to pay. Employers bottom dollar pay. So money is everything. When you get paid beyond a certain amount, then and only then do you think, maybe I would like ping pong. But with student loans, rent / mortgage, family and what not, it's about getting paid.
When I finished school, I was definitely looking for professional growth, work life balance, and interesting problems to solve. In fact, AMD offered me a very nice salary to work for them when I finished. I turned it down, even though it was the highest paying offer I received. I ended up going to another company that was about the same size as AMD, but transitioning from analog to digital. At AMD I would have been one of thousands of software people. At this other company I was one in about fifty. I
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but paying above expectation does not yield a lot of extra satisfaction
Speak for yourself.
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Re:When surveyed, people lie! (Score:5, Insightful)
But salary is a hygiene factor: if it's lower than expected it leads to dissatisfaction, but paying above expectation does not yield a lot of extra satisfaction.
It's a LIE spread by HR departments to suppress salary increases. If it were true, all C-level executives would only be paid similar to, or maybe 2-3x, the average wage of the company, not 100-200x of it. And they won't asking for, and get, even more millions in bonus and stock options every year, plus a golden parachute, even if they drove the company to the ground.
Speak for yourself. Pay ME above expectation will certainly give ME a lot of extra satisfaction.
In fact, everyone I know at work PREFER to get a bigger bonus/higher pay as appreciating for job well done, instead of stupid appreciate cards or such cheap gimmicks.
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There is an assumption that salary is going to fall in the same range. It is when Corp A offers you $70k and Corp B offers you $67k that salary becomes a "nice to have".
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There's certainly a whole lot more to choosing a company than $3k in salary difference.
- Are you going to be able to work on cool stuff and grow in your abilities/marketability?
- Is the management cool - #1 reason people hate their jobs is because they work for dicks
- Do they have flexible hours, can you work from home, etc?
- Is your commute gonna suck at one, more than the other?
- What does the 401k matching look like?
- etc., etc.
These aren't "nice to have", they're essential to your quality of life.
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There's certainly a whole lot more to choosing a company than $3k in salary difference.
- Are you going to be able to work on cool stuff and grow in your abilities/marketability?
- Is the management cool - #1 reason people hate their jobs is because they work for dicks
- Do they have flexible hours, can you work from home, etc?
- Is your commute gonna suck at one, more than the other?
- What does the 401k matching look like?
And 3 of the 5 of those you don't know until you work there for a month.
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Only if you're too lazy to do your homework.
I could make more, or keep working from home (Score:3)
I could make 50% more by switching jobs to one that has crappy work-life balance and is unpleasant.
Or I could stay at my current job where I work from home instead of sitting in traffic, while doing exactly what I most love to do - mentoring programmers in security.
If you're reading this from the US, you're probably already in the top 2% highest-earning people in the world. Most Americans in IT are already 2%ers. You're already rich, no matter what Nancy Pelosi tells you. Getting a tiny bit richer isn't go
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If you're reading this from the US, you're probably already in the top 2% highest-earning people in the world.
Citation needed. ;)
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34k$US/year puts you in the top 1% of world incomes.
You can make that with no school, an A+ cert and a bad attitude.
I'll grant there are a lot of people who apparently got lost on the net and ended up on /.
I'd amend the GPs claim: 'If you're reading this from the US and understand, you're probably already in the top 1% highest-earning people in the world.'
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'If you're reading this from the US...
And then you get sick and find your crappy employer supplied health insurance doesn't cover as much as you thought it did, and you're either bankrupt or dead.
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The point is that they ARE rich by world standards. You should travel.
By world standards you can be poor or fat, but not both. In America we spend a billion a year on free obesity related health care for the 'poors'.
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Talk when you leave Clearlake.
I'm a dual citizen, I can work anywhere in the USA or the EU. That really has to annoy you.
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Half the 1% rate is average for Mexico, 60k$ is well above average for the USA. You don't know what you are talking about.
Mexico isn't all that broke globally.
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$34k/person year is well above the poverty line in the USA. Sure it won't get you every zip code, but so what?
Also, full circle, if you are reading /. and make $34k, you should spend less time posting the same stupid shit, over and over.
By world standards the poor remain on the edge of starvation.
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Goalpost move noted. Don't have kids you can't afford! Duh.
34k/person year is above the poverty line, in the bay area you'll be living at the far end of BART and sharing an apartment. So what?
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Mexican per capita income is about $50/day.
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https://www.indeed.com/salarie... [indeed.com]
$70,573, not bad considering the median wage in the US in 2017 was ~$44k
https://www.thebalancecareers.... [thebalancecareers.com]
Re: I could make more, or keep working from home (Score:2)
Re: I could make more, or keep working from home (Score:2)
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Is living within reasonable cycling distance of your workplace a "luxury want"?
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The average people in Africa and Asia walk to get water on a daily basis is 6k/3.7miles.
So yeah, a lifestyle where you're concerned about "living within reasonable cycling distance of your workplace" is a luxury in this world.
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The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are
I think you will find that this is "interview bullshit". It is the sort of answer that people think the ask-er wants to hear.
The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
Besides, in my experience jobs give you. Just enough professional growth to churn out the code that makes them money, the company doesn't want a great software engineer, they want a code monkey that does what they are told and asks no questions. Work/life balance means you can have all the outside of work balance you want when nothing important is going on but we better not hear anything about you leaving work when a deadline comes up. For interesting work, see the code monkey part.
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Also it is a good thing they don't want pay or perks. Well the pay is good if you work enough hours (if you get paid hourly) but I haven't seen perks in my jobs.
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Do you care to describe a code monkey specific duties in such a way as they could be easily replicated by a software engineer?
I've had quite a few jobs I was sorely tempted to automate, but the schedule was too tight to spend the time setting up the automation and the customer would have refused to pay extra money up front, even though they would save a lot in the long run. One customer specifically refused automation of the software testing as it would take away jobs.
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Do you care to describe a code monkey specific duties in such a way as they could be easily replicated by a software engineer?
For a more concrete example. I had one job where I was writing tests for software where the requirements were literally a logic diagram written out so it could be fed to a model to create code. I could have written a separate program to parse the requirements and write the tests. Would have just needed a reviewer of each test to pass certification i believe.
Re:When surveyed, people lie! (Score:5, Informative)
The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
first job is to be a full-time developer. To rise above the crowd who claims that can do dev work, and maybe does it part time. My second job paid 3x my first job, because I had that credibility.
Do Millennials really care that that much about work-life balance out of school? When I was in my 20s, I was full of energy and passion, and happy to work my ass off on any project that was actually interesting. Good thing, too, as I had a lot to learn. It was only in my 30s that I started to care about time for other things. Now it's my primary concern, but I'm close to retirement.
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Dang, Slashcode really mangled that one!
That post should start with "My first job paid half of market rate. What's really important in your first job ..."
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Do Millennials really care that that much about work-life balance out of school?
According to the survey, 52% of them did.
50% income can still be a lower factor (Score:2)
The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less
That's true up to a baseline. But for example. I expressly chose not to live in California although I could have easily had more than a 50% boost in salary... I make enough that I am fine not making as much as I could.
I could see someone just out of school taking a position with a small startup that was working on something really cool, and making even 75% less than they might going to Facebook for exampl
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The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are
I think you will find that this is "interview bullshit". It is the sort of answer that people think the ask-er wants to hear.
The reality is that is you offer a candidate a lower than expected "nice to have" salary, say: 50% less, they'll walk to the next employer who is offering more.
Ever think for a moment that salary is not in the top list of concerns because of the low unemployment and high demand for certain skills?
Not everything is as bullshit-riddled as it may seem. Besides, companies know that a non-competitive salary offer is going to make people walk, so I kind of doubt your "50% less" offer is being thrown out there that often.
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Really? I would have thought it likely that half of all employees accept below-average salaries.
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Well, I was mostly riffing on the old "half of all people have below average IQ" truism people spout here before making some argument based on things being distributed on a bell curve. But you're absolutely right. In fact, a few unreasonably high salaries might mean more than half of people take below-average compensation!
Where is MONEY on this list? (Score:2, Insightful)
Or, are they just assuming that they deserve a high starting salary, and therefore, the "perks" are what the deciding factors are?
Geez....you work for MONEY, and if you are bitching about not having any, then that should make your first priority coming out of school.
Get out, make as much $$ as
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Not all millenials graduate with a Comp Sci degree.
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This is a survey of students, not people 3+ years into their career. They're MOST concerned with being taught all the stuff that they didn't learn in college so that they can actually earn good money. That's literally the first section after the table of contents in the linked article.
Don't confuse the means with the ends (Score:2)
> you work for MONEY, and if you are bitching about not having any, then that should make your first priority coming out of school.
> Get out, make as much $$ as you can
You're confusing the ends with the means. Money is something I use to take care of my family. My family is the purpose. I work to put gas in my jetski, because riding the jetski is fun. A pile of money, of itself, doesn't make your life better or more fulfilling.
If you give up your family life in exchange for more money, you're doing
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Again, without people stating what they make and what their standard of living is, all your comments are bullshit.
A job is about making money and paying the bills. Period. Beyond a certain income, you can get philosophical.
Past generations knew they had to work hard, and give things up in order to provide. That's the compromise. That's never changed.
Software Engineering degree (Score:2)
We're talking about people will a software engineering degree. Their income will be about three times what's needed to pay the rent, put food on the table, etc.
> If you don't have enough to to pay the rent, provide for your family, and retire, what kind of life do you have...
That's not the people we're talking about. At least, not in terms of income - you said "have" rather than "earn". If you have a software engineering degree and consistently don't have enough money to pay the rent, you probably have
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You're somewhat taking the extreme side here...
You're not entirely wrong, mind you. Yes, I don't want to live in a crappy apartment and eat Ramen noodles all the time in order to work on really cool stuff. Conversely, I don't care if they pay me a big wad of money if I'm doing something that doesn't allow me to grow and learn new things.
But there is a happy medium out there, believe it or not, where they will pay you a reasonable amount and you sometimes get to do some interesting things.
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While of course you'd rather work a fun job....that usually isn't the case.
If they paid me a LARGE enough wad of money, I'd have no problem whatsoever doing that and not growing....as that I can have a LOT of fun in my time with the large wad of money doing things I like to do and want to do.
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One thing I always tell people is, "Figure out what you like to do. Then figure out a way to make money doing that."
If I'm going to spend eight hours a day, five days a week doing something, it better be something I enjoy doing. Now, I'll admit that I'm lucky--I get to do something I enjoy and make pretty good money doing it.
It's not that easy to do. Sure, it sounds easy--"I like to surf!" But how do you make money knowing how to surf? Well, you can compete, which is one way. But are you good enough t
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If you're totally sacrificing quality of life trying to get just a little more money, you're really missing out.
No argument there, but one should also bear in mind that they money you make and save *now* is worth more than what you'll make later in life due to the magic of compound interest and returns on investment. As with so many things in life, finding a good balance between money and a decent work environment is important.
True, that's 95% of millionaires (Score:2)
True, over 90% of millionaires made less than $100k - they invested over time, and earned returns on their returns on their returns. The time factor in investment is huge - investing early makes a HUGE difference.
That said, it's also easy to lose track of the real purpose and pursue money, so if you're working hard now and foregoing spending in order to retire at age 45, remember that's your goal. Don't be working 60 hours a week when you're 50 in order to get more money, after you already have $2 million.
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Geez....you work for MONEY, and if you are bitching about not having any, then that should make your first priority coming out of school.
I think we can safely assume that amongst those millenials who come out of school and don't have enough money and bitch about it, there are almost no software developers...
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When I was first job hunting, the idea of worrying about what students wanted in a job would have been thought of as silly. What we wanted was a paycheck. We may have had good ideas on the type of jobs we wanted but it never crossed our minds to think about office space layouts or what was stocked in the break room.
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I'm Gen X. Thanks to all the millennial beta-males and homosexuals, there's lots of unemployed women will to work and serve alpha types such as myself.
Now go bring me coffee.
It's hard work getting the lazy to do their job. Sheesh!
I'm a Baby Boomer...get the fuck off my lawn.
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Actual quote was from Genghis Khan. IIRC (might have been Attila).
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Employers focus on what they can easily change (Score:2)
The three most important criteria students look for in job opportunities are professional growth and learning (58%), work/life balance (52%), and having interesting problems to solve (46%), according to a survey of 10,350 student developers worldwide. These far outpaced compensation (18%) and perks (11%), which they view as "nice to haves" rather than deal breakers, the survey found.
Providing growth opportunities, a work/life balance, and interesting problems for new developers to work on is difficult for many companies. Many business problems are simply boring and mundane. The interesting projects are often tackled by more senior staff. Extra pay and silly perks are easy to provide by comparison. The hardest part of my job is ensuring my employees are working on interesting projects they enjoy and are being challenged with. I find it the most important thing for me to get right and is
Re:Employers focus on what they can easily change (Score:5, Funny)
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For CS majors who 'learned everything in school', maintaining a bunch of reports and their associated queries is an 'interesting problem to solve'. Because they need practicals and business knowledge. From the team management side, it's a test...(pass/fail)
Anything more complicated and less spelled out is overwhelming.
I prefer to just not hire them, 'What computer languages did you know when you started college?' answer routes their resumes to the bin.
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I don't care what you believe. Because you are a moron.
I don't grow acres, I grow 6 plants (most years) for personal use. Everybody I know gets free pot. Everybody I know that grew pot for a living has stopped, market is glutted.
I also own 3 atom bombs, if you're looking for bullshit to callout.
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For recent grads, if the answer is 'none' then the resume goes into the trash where it belongs.
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If someone lacked consistent access to an end-user-programmable computer with which to learn a programming language until enrolling in university, what should he or she do to earn his or her first relevant work experience?
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Don't know. Maybe code something? Maybe take a job as IT support.
If someone lacked access to a musical instrument, what should he or she do to earn his place in a philharmonic orchestra? Maybe, learn to play?
I don't think your question is realistic. It's not 1970. They likely didn't lack access, they lacked interest. Without a sincere interest, even if they get in, they will be miserable and mediocre.
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I don't think your question is realistic. It's not 1970. They likely didn't lack access, they lacked interest.
Say you're 14, and you have a hand-me-down iPhone, a game console, and interest in learning how to program a computer. What's your next step?
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Accepting someones cast off computer, paving it over with a fresh OS install then picking a up any language. There are many other options, but that one is close to free.
I washed dishes for two summers to pay for my first PC. Today, you can't give away much better computers, nobody wants them.
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Sell the iphone and the game console and buy an inexpensive computer and stick one (or more) of the many free computer programming environments on it after checking with someone knowledgeable about how to do that.
Senior Developers want the same (Score:2)
It is my experience that senior developers want the same things.
After doing this for 20 years, I don't care about video games at work, or anything else you are trying to use to keep me there. I'm going to work to work, and when I'm done I'm going home to have fun. All the companies pay in the same ballpark, and I'm paid enough to afford my own lunch.
Give me something to work on that isn't going to completely bore me to death.
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After doing this for 20 years, I don't care about video games at work...
Video games at work?!? OH -- wait: you must be referring to the standard suite of network load testing tools. ...
I'm only somewhat joking, here; that's actually what my team called it, back when I was working internal tech support for a large-shall-remain-unnamed-company. Yeah... good times.
But of course, eventually real life demands that we move on to a job that actually pays the bills. (Sigh.)
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Once you've been at this for a while, you can smell the bad managers pretty much as soon as you walk into the office.
No they won't fire them, they are in denial. Just don't take that job. The time to burn a bridge is _before_ you've crossed it.
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The tool choice, the managers themselves, the work environment and the unspoken language of the staff.
IT is 'overhead', run away.
Javascript anywhere but in a browser, run away. Idiots are making technical decisions there.
No formal source control, unit testing or bug tracking, run away. Same as last.
Claims of 'agility', but obvious shitty, low pay team and scrum, run away. Self deluded, Agile explicitly says 'people over process'. Shitty teams just can't do agile, they do scrum or some other rigid '
Re: Senior Developers want the same (Score:2)
They want to learn a real programming language (Score:2)
Money (Score:2)
And a full lot of it.
Be grateful (Score:2)
What you really want (Score:2)
I say BS (Score:2)
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Advancement is a waste (Score:2)
Skills should be utilized and heirarchies squished. Labels are what you buy at the supermarket.
Work/life is fair, except that work that's disjoint from life will always be second rate.
A challenge is the only thing that keeps you going. A job is where you should be paid to learn as much, if not more, than to actually do.
Programmers who study and design make fewer mistakes, so if you want a decent product, don't let the programmers near a machine until they have the software on paper.
I have found problems get more interesting (Score:2)
having interesting problems to solve
These students have it backwards, but I didn't get it when I was a student either. Do not look for a job in an interesting industry, or that is solving "interesting problems." Look for a job with good compensation, and with good people who value your skills. Then the problems they bring you will be interesting because solving them helps you and helps the people you work with, whom you like. Work for good people and they will also support you in growth and work/life balance.
Survey Questions/Data Collected, US Context (Score:2)
1. How did you learn to code?
2. Besides HackerRank, which of these platforms do you use to learn how to code?
3. Which languages do employers need?
4. Which languages do students know?
5. Which languages do students plan to learn next?
6. Which frameworks do employers need?
7. Which frameworks do student developers know?
8. What do student developers want most in a job?
Option (Global % / US %), +/- US Diff
- Professional Growth & Learning (57.8 / 45.0), -13.8
- Good Work-Life Balance (52.2 / 52.9), +0.7
- Intere
Answer (Score:2)
Answer: Pay off their student loans.
Book Larnin' (Score:3)
"For many student developers, a computer science degree is not enough to teach them the skills they will need in the workforce, the report found."
If they're anything like me, what the school courses will have done is just teach them various languages' syntax. I didn't really "learn" how to write code until I had to actually use it to accomplish various tasks (mostly on the job).
"having interesting problems to solve (46%)" (Score:2)
If work were interesting, you'd be paying your boss to do it instead of them paying you to do it.
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I've met them too. Most useless people anywhere.
If someone can't code when a HS senior, they need to give up on CS. The ship has sailed. They are like an aspiring classical musician who waited until college to pick up an instrument.
Only exception is someone growing up in an environment with no available computers, say the 1950s or rural sub saharan Africa.
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If you could code, you could replace yourself with a simple 'script'. But timestamps show you are sitting there in your impotence, waiting to cut and paste, again.
Never change!
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Schools have gotten somewhat better in equipping students to actually code. "Teaching languages" are mostly a thing of the past now, and most students seem to be taught in some combination of Java and JS, which sets you up for more than half the coding jobs out there.
Also, I think you'll find the people who are self-motivated to "learn new languages or techniques all the time" are the ones who separate from the pack over the first decade. The rest ... don't, and remain at a mid-career job title their whol
Re: Those seem like pretty good goals - one caveat (Score:2)
Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT (Score:3)
If you believe Java, and the completely unrelated JavaScript languages comprise half the IT work "out there" then you are woefully ignorant.
I don't do Java anymore myself, but I used to do Java for many years as an enterprise developer - if you lumped Java and Javascript together (which I agree are unrelated except by name) I think that would be around half of all IT work you'd find in most companies today - especially so with Javascript which has really gained a pretty widespread use for server development
Re: Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT (Score:3)
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You said "IT Work", which is almost an unrelated field to software development engineer jobs these days. I don't think you meant "help desk and system admins" but that's what "IT works" means these days.
You said "Web development", but did you mean "UI work", or "stuff that has a remotely-callable API"? The latter is most Java code, though coding for Android has started to shift that balance a bit.
If you know Java, you can usually get hired for a C# job (and vice versa), especially straight out of college.
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Grr, fixed link: https://www.codingdojo.com/blo... [codingdojo.com]
Re: Java and Javascript pretty widespread in IT (Score:2)
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Well, that was the common usage 20 years ago, the be sure, These days, not so much, but it's not germane to the point, I think. If you're talking about non-sysadmin jobs, Java and JS give you experience with the languages needed for most dev jobs these days.
For all Java has grown old and hairy, nothing has emerged to replace it. People are seriously doing server-side JS, odd as that is.
Is it not absurd to claim embedded work is IT work (Score:2)
Have you never heard of embedded systems? C, C++, C# and so many other languages too numerous to list?
I've done some embedded systems work myself, and know C and C++ well (well I used to know C++ well but I think enough time as passed I may be cured).
However that has nothing at all to do with IT programming.
Even if it did, the number of embedded systems and OS programmers is way less than web developers so probably including that would not change percentages...
Game development is a whole other world.
All web
Re: Is it not absurd to claim embedded work is IT (Score:2)
More detail for you (Score:2)
No, I am not saying anything about who is right, simply saying that most people consider IT work to be development work done for large companies.
I have worked in a variety of companies, large and small. While it is true 30 years ago I was doing C and C++ for general development work in companies.
But in the last ten years the work large companies are doing is way more in Java and C# than C++ - or especially C, which is used in hardware development but not nearly so much any more for general operations progr
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The rest ... don't, and remain at a mid-career job title their whole career. At least, I've never worked any place where half the engineers were senior.
On the other hand, my current position is at a place where there are a lot of engineering disciplines represented (software, aerospace, mechanical, electrical, and even chemical and metallurgical Ph.D.s are quite common), but most of the engineers prefer to stay at their senior-level positions instead of going into management because they're true geeks and
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I'm talking only about people who stay engineers, and the world of software development, not the more mature world of engineering in general. It's rare to see more than 1 in 5 developers at a manager-equivalent pay grade; heck 1 in 10 is more common at a lot of places (and that's the minimum for a "senior engineer" job to be more than a bogus title). Most people don't develop the breadth of skills to rise above a mid-career pay grade (below the average manager). And since the field pays well, most people
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No imposing heteronormative, patriarchal addition rules you fascist!
They're doing number flexable feminist social justice math. You should support them silently.
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This.
CS in college (when I went 80s- early 90s night school) taught us nothing about configuration management. It taught us nothing about requirements. It taught us nothing about architecture. It taught us nothing about design. It taught us nothing about integration, and extremely little about testing.
For me, all of that came from working at a F500 company via OJT.