Chinese Developers Fear the Fallout From the Tech War Will Cost Them Access To GitHub (abacusnews.com) 180
Restricted access to US technology is shaping up to have a big impact on Huawei. Now some Chinese software developers are wondering if the ongoing trade dispute between the US and China might soon affect them. From a report: It all revolves around US-based GitHub, the world's largest code hosting platform. Countless open source code projects are based on GitHub, allowing people from around the world to view and collaborate on projects. And as of last year, GitHub is now owned by Microsoft. The fears started when GitHub's export control rules caught the attention of China's developer community. It says that content developed on GitHub needs to comply with US export laws, including the Export Administration Regulations (EAR), the same regulations used to restrict exports to Huawei and affiliated companies.
"For developers, source code is a very important resource," said Liu Chen, director of operations for Open Source China (OSChina), which calls itself the largest open source community in China. Fears about losing access to GitHub might be overblown. Apache Software Foundation (ASF), another US-based organization that offers open source software, published an announcement on Wednesday saying that open source software and collaboration on open source code are not subject to the EAR. Nevertheless, the export control rules seen on GitHub mean some in the community remain concerned. The mere prospect of losing access to such an important aspect of their work is alarming.
"For developers, source code is a very important resource," said Liu Chen, director of operations for Open Source China (OSChina), which calls itself the largest open source community in China. Fears about losing access to GitHub might be overblown. Apache Software Foundation (ASF), another US-based organization that offers open source software, published an announcement on Wednesday saying that open source software and collaboration on open source code are not subject to the EAR. Nevertheless, the export control rules seen on GitHub mean some in the community remain concerned. The mere prospect of losing access to such an important aspect of their work is alarming.
I weep (Score:5, Insightful)
I weep for the loss of international colaborations that the open-ness US norms fostered. Is the trust in US systems recoverable?
On the otherhand, it is just punishment for a country that disregarded Intellectual Property so wantonly despite decades of warnings.
Re:Bad girlfreind (Score:5, Insightful)
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Curious kind of analogy, considering the +trillion US debt China owns [cbsnews.com].
The analogy in this case would be more like: .
She wouldn't stop lending you her money that you were more than happy to spend
China sells us goods below what it costs to ship them, let alone what it would cost to manufacture them. Then our factories go bankrupt because they can't possibly compete against those prices. Then China swoops in to buy our factories at bottom of the market bankruptcy pricing levels. If allowed to keep doing that, eventually China will own all of the factories in the US.
The China/US relationship needs to be more fair. They need to trade some trinkets manufactured in their factories for some trinkets made
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Defaulting on a trillion dollars in debt is a terrible idea.
First, the massive expansion in dollars floating around will devastate the US dollar and any commodity tied to that. This might make wages cheaper in the short term however the real effect will be massive inflation.
Second, the next time you try and sell bonds there won't be many buyers because you defaulted. When that happens you need to massively increase the promised interest payments during the government bond auction. And then you become Greece
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It's not defaulting to run the press and then use the printed money to pay a debt. It's not even close to default. All nations print a little extra every year, including the US.
Quantitative Easing Phases 1-3 (done by the US Federal Reser
Re:Bad girlfreind (Score:5, Interesting)
More like all you know how to do is to copy solutions from a play book and the book is taken away.
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Not precisely. It's more like "Don't put all your eggs in one basket.".
I always worry about centralized depositories. They offer the potential of too much control.
The correct answer is to set up a mirror site. Git should be good for that. Then, of course, you need to manage the synchronization, etc. which is a bit of extra work. Just like any backup...a good backup is a bit of extra work for a bunch of extra security.
Re: I weep (Score:3)
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"punishing good ppl for the actions of their gov"
well yeah, that's what governments do to each other.
if it makes you feel any better, rest assured that they were not all "good ppl".
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Yeah, I am with you bro! This is really a shame since I enjoy the GitHub especially since Microsoft bought it. It fits nicely with my multiple Microsoft certification I got from 25+ years as a professional in IT.
I find AmazonTM the gretest thing since sliced bread and helps taking care of my health at retirement with the Amazon long tail revenue streams!
All you need to do is find a website with a permissive TOS, say, Slashdot, create a Python script to scrape your own comments, sprinkle Amazon affiliate lin
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If you tolerate this bad government, why are you so sure that you're good people?
And if it is somebody else, do you actually know they're all good people? For example, if we know their government is bad, are they eager for an opportunity to work at jobs on behalf of their government? If so, they might be the same people, equally good or bad.
Do they routinely do whatever the "bad" things are that you're blaming their government for? Are these things only done by a specific group or class of people, or by the
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Many of the Chinese that work on github are no different than any westerner. They just want to do their own thing.
OTOH, the Chinese gov, and I would even suggest the dems/GOP, want to control things
And as to Trump/China, trump is a jack ass, but I agree with what he is doing to China. OTOH, he is doing his best to harm EUrope and all of our NATO allies. The only one that helps, is putin.
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Upload versus download. Everyone gets to download from github but uploads can be blocked. So they mirror a download and the rest of the world can only get Chinese uploads from the Chinese version of github. M$ screws with downloads from github and make absolutely no mistake, they will have just bought nothing. Github will die overnight if they block downloads, dead.
Why did M$ buy github, to track uploaders and downloaders, to analyse, to hack (they are dicks), seek employees, steal ideas (not the code, the
Re:I weep (Score:4, Insightful)
Is the trust in US systems recoverable?
It's possible but will be difficult.
As well as fixing the export controls you would need to fix your visa system and airport/border security. The biggest issue though is that you treat non-US citizens as having far fewer rights than your own.
Also stop trying to extradite people for stuff they did nowhere near the US.
We want you back but there has to be meaningful change.
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The biggest issue though is that you treat non-US citizens as having far fewer rights than your own.
It's pretty much every country in the world. You do not get the same rights as a citizen does, end of story.
Also stop trying to extradite people for stuff they did nowhere near the US.
So is the UK going to stop doing the same thing? Just out of curiosity.
We want you back but there has to be meaningful change.
If by meaningful change, you mean "a country is a sovereign country" then yep sounds great. Seems like most people are tired of the open borders, take in the world, why are these 'immigrants' raping children and getting a slap on the wrist while buddy-mc-jimbo is spending 14 years in segregation to stop the other prisoners from k
Re:I weep (Score:4, Insightful)
You do not get the same rights as a citizen does, end of story.
You should, in terms of due process, the right to refuse invasive scans, and the right to privacy.
I'm not giving you my Facebook password or letting you read the data on my encrypted drives. If you want to then you must accept that people will not travel to or cooperate with the US because of it.
And yes, the UK could do better as well.
Re:I weep (Score:4, Informative)
"The right ro refuse invasive scans" is an issue at borders. People do regular smuggle technology, weapons, and drugs through border crossings.
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Crime is an issue everywhere. Better install a camera in your bathroom in case you try to flush drugs.
Or maybe we can find some reasonable balance, especially given that the scanners don't really work anyway.
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I would be quite happy enjoying San Diego beaches in the summer time if half the fucking tourist would not show up. Even if half those little beach businesses went away, the best part of the whole thing, THE BEACH!!!!, would still be there and available for all the residents.
Yes tourism helps the economy but it's so frustrating knowing any fun place you want to visit will be loaded with more visitors then residents.
So please, stay home. I don't need more people visiting my already crowded city. Many other p
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You should, in terms of due process, the right to refuse invasive scans, and the right to privacy.
That is due process. You are hereby notified that to gain entry, you must pass what has been writ into law. Whether you agree with it or not doesn't matter. In the end, that becomes the realm of the courts to determine legality on whether the law is correct, or if rights should be extended because the act of the state itself has been an egregious abuse. In nearly all case the answer is "no" or "but in such a case" or "this was a violation and restitution is required" in varying degrees for a citizen. A
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If you get questioned at the border do they provide a legal representative? Do they have special powers that other law enforcement officials do not? And are the rules about what they can and cannot do exactly the same for citizens and non-citizens?
It's fine if you are happy for it to be unattractive to foreigners, but the OP was asking how to make the US a place where people want to cooperate and visit again.
I've been to China. Fingerprints and a photo of my face. No strip scanners though. I wouldn't use th
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If you get questioned at the border do they provide a legal representative?
No, unless you are charged with a crime. Same as nearly everywhere else.
Does the UK provide legal representatives at all border crossings for people that are asked questions?
Do they have special powers that other law enforcement officials do not?
Yes. Same as nearly everywhere else.
They can confiscate fruit which risks invasive species entrance for instance.
are the rules about what they can and cannot do exactly the same for citizens and non-citizens?
No, same as everywhere else.
Citizens can't be denied for not having a visa for instance.
It's fine if you are happy for it to be unattractive to foreigner
One of the largest problems the US has is that it is too attractive to foreign people. So much so that millions of people risk their live
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I'm an American and I'm not willing to travel with a smart phone, or even a laptop. I'll buy a local one when I get there and transfer any data I need at that time.
That's true in both directions. It has nothing to do with which citizenship a person has, it has a lot more to do with their knowledge of border security rules and practices.
I might bring a laptop with me to Canada, but only over the land border. Through an airport? No way!
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Shit, man, if an American goes to Scotland, they better not wear the wrong kilt, you can go to jail for wearing the same tartan pattern over there, that they made and sold to you over the internet.
And if you don't want to get extradited for financial transactions that are illegal in the US, it is highly advised not to make those transactions using US banks. Certainly don't fly to a US city so that you can sign the paperwork that makes all sorts of representations about where the money is going, too.
I don't
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You cannot go to jail for wearing the wrong tartan in Scotland.
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You can be arrested [scotclans.com] for wearing the wrong kilt with arms. Tartan pattern has nothing to do with it and that's why you reworded the claim you are shitting on.
MAKE NO MISTAKE – these matters are regulated by Statute Law in Scotland and there are real penalties, including fines, confiscation and ultimately jail, for “pretending to Arms” that are not yours.
Why Ami cam make up nonsense that is easily refuted and be upvoted shows how broken the mod system is.
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You didn't consider: Maybe I mentioned it because I grew up in America learning Scottish highland dancing, and in fact I already have a preferred kilt, that is one of the most popular ones in the world for my clan. And perhaps I considered the question, what if I wanted to go to Scotland for the Highland Games? Can I wear that same kilt? When you're buying a kilt, either online or mail order, there is often language about it not being their responsibility to make sure you're buying one you can legally wear
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No, seriously, you won't go to jail for wearing the wrong tartan. It's not a law, it's not on the books, the police won't arrest you for it.
Aside from anything else it would probably violate ECHR, which Scotland is rather fond of.
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You can only be prosecuted for wearing a kilt if the kilt contains fur from an endangered or protected species [bbc.co.uk]. Yes, there are exceptions for inherited heirloom kilts that don't apply to the kilt you just bought online. Doesn't really seem like a law worth getting upset about though.
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That's only talking about the sporran, not the kilt.
The sporran is the purse. The kilt is the skirt.
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I laugh (Score:5, Insightful)
The west , but mainly the US , created china in its present form over the last 20-30 years. Remember when most electronics were made in Japan? Not any more.
In their pursuit of ever more cost cutting and profit increases (to allow board pay rises), US electronics corporations outsourced all their manufacturing to what they saw as the borderline 3rd world - ie china. Well that 3rd world tag didn't last long did it.
Want to know why china is doing so well people in the US? Look to yourselves. You created it in its present form with your need to buy ever cheaper crap you don't need, you only have yourselves to blame. And very soon the tables will be reversed - the US will be the 3rd world and china will be in the ascendent.
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The west , but mainly the US , created china in its present form over the last 20-30 years.
Wow, that's only true if you primarily see 'China' as the manufacturer of cheap goods for export, which it isn't. That's like saying, "America is basically just McDonald's and Coke." Even from a culinary perspective, that's not true.
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Wow, that's only true if you primarily see 'China' as the manufacturer of cheap goods for export, which it isn't.
Sure, they also make cheap parts for export, and people in other countries turn those into expensive goods. The USA is by far China's largest trading partner, though.
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Context is important. If you're an idol in a kpop girl group, American cuisine means tomatoes and coffee. And the Fist Bump is really the only American ritual you need to know about.
Evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
China isn't just cheap goods for export. They're also our only source of panda bears.
Too stupid; BoD don't get paid much (Score:2, Interesting)
Typical clueless non-Capitolist.
Most BoDs don't get paid much. Usually just $20K for each meeting attended with quarterly meetings - so $80K/yr. That's for the big companies. Smaller companies will pay only expenses for the trips - which might be a limo and driver if they are local.
Where the BoD makes there money is by dividends and stock price appreciation based on their strategic directions to the CEO, President, and other C-suite executives.
I've been a board member at smaller companies before they went
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"Most BoDs don't get paid much. Usually just $20K for each meeting attended with quarterly meetings - so $80K/yr."
Oh how you must have suffered, only 80K for turning up to 4 meetings a year. Someone get the UN on the phone!
All those people on the breadline who don't know where their next rent payment is coming from will really be feeling your pain.
Congratulations on proving just how utterly out of touch people like you are.
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Shall we start punishing all of America, whose entire industrial revolution was founded on systematic IP theft? Good idea.
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1. Better to disregard IP restrictions than to bomb civilians and orchestrate coups.
2. "Intellectual property" is illegitimate and exploitative legal fiction, which should be disregarded anyway.
Please remove barriers to the spread of good ideas (Score:1)
The imaginary concept of "Intellectual Property" is what drove a wedge into collaboration in the first place. No one but a large corporation can afford to play now, because even a claim of infringement on an obvious idea you stumble upon can be used to destroy you. You want to recover trust? Kick the intellectual feudalism to the curb, and watch progress accelerate while both competition and collaboration flourish.
It is disgusting that registering a minor insight with the patent of office is grounds for mon
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Of course, China can make their own GitHub and force the West to come crawling on their knees for access to it...
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Everyone seems to be blowing this out of proportion. Export control has been around for ages and anyone making products that fall under these restrictions (hardware, software, documents/algorithms) in the US that could be subject to restrictions are supposed to follow various processes before releasing the info (the statement such restrictions don't apply to the open source community is BS). I'm not arguing that the restricted "technology" is sometimes/often stupid to restrict.
I had to sign a form for Nor
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Wouldn't that require Trump or the Republican Congress actually giving a shit about FOSS?
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Congress is no longer controlled by GOP. Senate is, but even then, most GOP senators are decent. It is in the house where you get both far right and left extremists like AOC.
Mitch McConnel is not decent. After spending the Obama years blocking everything he did. He's now blocking everything the House is doing - just because. He's allowing Trump everything - all for the sake of his party and the country be damned! He is a liar, fraud and on the payroll of big donors like the coal miners.
He is the epitome of how kooky and corrupt the Republican Party has become.
I wish the zombie George HW Bush would come back and eat his brains and finish Trump's term.
This old school Republica
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It's not that the Republicans are anything great or even good but the Democrats have fucked the American people just as bad.
Nope. The Democrats have fucked us just as hard in most ways, except on basic rights, where they have done a lot less of the fucking.
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It depends on the historical decade. The Democrats were the party of slavery and was against votes for women, and in favor of segregation, during previous US history. The witch to support for civil rights occurred in my youth.
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It depends on the historical decade.
Sure, I'll grant you that. If they switch back, I'll switch too.
I call myself an independent, but I'm registered as a dem so that I can vote in the dem primary. Whee.
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AOC is an extremist?
AOC is a moderate lefty with a very sharp mind. It's probably the sharp mind that is hurting the propaganda machine that is feeding you your talking points.
Re: Export controls? Time to leave Github then (Score:2)
I think it might be due to the fact that she says shit before thinking sometimes and it makes some of her statements sound insane. Like when she said she wants to tax robots. That's not what she meant, but it's what she said.
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She has strong opinions which is fine, but check her record on fact-checking sites. She doesn't do her fact-checking before speaking and often glosses over or contradicts important factual points in order to sell her activist positions. This is not strengthening liberalism, and in fact her and some of her compatriots are actively trying / threatening to unseat more moderates liberals to replace them with radical activists. AOC and similar are actually undermining the Democrats. Point in case: her GND receiv
Re: Export controls? Time to leave Github then (Score:2, Informative)
You need to rethink that example. All Democrats in the Senate abstained because it was clearly a vote designed for making a partisan attack on AOC with no actual policy behind it.
The whole intent was showmanship to elicit exactly the kind of retelling that you just made. You fell for it hook,
Line, and sinker.
Even as a Republican you should be embarrassed by those kinds of posturing-only antics.
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You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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No. You think of GitHub as FOSS, but to most non-techs who know about it, it's a Microsoft property. So damaging it is damaging Microsoft.
Well, I'm actually all in favor of damaging Microsoft, but not by damaging GitHub, which would have minimal effect on them. OTOH, it really is time to move away from GitHub....though not necessarily to cut connections. More to do the development on a site that's mirrored to GitHub, so your work remains under your control, without becoming difficult to access. You cou
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That's what I do. Primary repo is GitLab, where I can have public or private projects for free. It gets pushed over to GitHub when I feel like it.
It seems like a lot of the big tech acquisitions are way overpriced for something that people can walk away from. GitHub seems even more questionable, since distributed repository systems like Git are essentially *designed* to make it easy to move somewhere else.
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Better, but still not optimal. Optimal is to have your own server which you and the development team use, and push the results to public facing sites when desired. GitLab is still a central point of control...though having it mirrored on GitHub reduces the problem.
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Meh, if you use git correctly it doesn't really matter who's your server. If GitHub gets sold to MS you switch to GitLab. If they both go bad you switch somewhere else or rent a VPN somewhere.
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It doesn't cripple you, but every time you need to reset all your ip addresses and authentications, it matters.
If you're a single developer this isn't as significant. If you're running a project, though, it seems as if it could be a major hassle.
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Well, you're hopefully not switching too often. Your own server is a great idea for bigger operations, sure, but it also comes with security and access concerns. Not to mention admin or rental costs.
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Well, the idea is it only needs to be sized to support the developers of the project, which pretty much any box should do. It's not the one you're running the development code on, it's the one you're sharing the code from/with. Even if the application needs a pretty hefty box to run properly, it shouldn't take that much to share it. The idea is that access to this box is limited to those you've accepted onto your development team. You still need to guard against those folks getting infected, of course,
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If Microsoft's purchase of Github results in export controls being applied to its users, then that is a major wakeup call to the rest of the world
Why would one US corporation being acquired by another US corporation make any difference to the laws that apply to it?
Comment removed (Score:3)
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oh, well, they certainly don't tolerate it domestically: https://www.scmp.com/news/chin... [scmp.com]
heheheh.
Re: I'm sure most of them are terrified (Score:2)
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well, it's not stealing if it's a communist country. it's just selective enforcement.
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It's "intellectual and asset liberation." See? It's not even stealing.
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I believe "liberating" oil-producing countries works the same way.
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For the west, the type of IP theft that needs to be considered is that regular workers create the IP, however the corporations get the IP rights.
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That makes perfect sense. If you do not agree with it, then do not work for companies that make you sign those.
And as somebody with a start-up that makes use of IP, I make employees sign same agreement. If they have patents that do not correspond with what our company does, they are free to develop it. Later on, once we are profitable, if somebody comes with an interesting patent, I
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If a company cant be bothered to file for a Chinese patent why should the Chinese govt spend time and money enforcing US patents. Govt is not a charity. Pay for the services or live without them
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How is that different from the US PTO. Which is why companies dont file everything in a Patent Office. Ultimately if you want to do business in China you have to trust Chinese courts to enforce your rights and deal with the fact that Chinese courts may not be fully in the predatory capitalist camp. Or you are free to take your ball and go home. But if you want to play the game in China you play by Chinese rules
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Since Git is such a replaceable thing, banning Github would be far worse for America than it would be for China. Chinese devs could be up and running on a Chinese-run Gitlab (or even a self-hosted one) within a couple of hours. From that point on, "America" gets no visibility about the work the Chinese devs are doing. Not only do they not see the source, but they don't get the 'meta' of it either (no matter how many secret court orders or whatever they serve up to MS).
Keep your friends close, and your enemi
Good thing Git is distributed (Score:2)
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Well, actually github is not git, but just another social media for coders.
So what? (Score:2)
The MSS will merely spider github from a US site, and clone its contents (their) nightly, and the cut and paste Chinese coders will still be able to meet their employer's feature deadlines.
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You forgot to remove the comma after "Electric", dumbass.
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There are bad features of GitHub, but I wouldn't call it evil. That's debasing the word. On the other hand, it is a centralized vulnerability.
Easy solution (Score:2)
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Any code that is under itar should be taken out of GitHub. This way, it becomes a none issue.
Github's export control policy [github.com] is linked from TFA. It states "If you are looking to collaborate on ITAR- or other export-controlled data, we recommend you consider GitHub Enterprise Server, GitHub's on-premises offering." This should affect few projects, because the only controlled code is for secret cryptosystems which are not known to the academic community.
Maybe a lawyer can explain this to me (Score:2)
IANAL so I WP'd on this and this is what I got. EAR does not apply to [...] Items that are exclusively controlled for export or reexport by [specific] departments and agencies of the U.S. Government which regulate exports or reexports [wikipedia.org] , nor to Information and âoesoftwareâ that are published , as described in 15 CFR Â734.7 [cornell.edu]: Except as set forth in paragraph (b)[("Published encryption software classified under ECCN 5D002")] [...], unclassified âoetechnologyâ or âoesoftwareâ
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I'm afraid the standard is deliberately vague. This contributes to selective enforcement, and to corporate blackmail, where companies are refused export licenses unless they embed crypto keys for US intelligence. (Cisco is notorious for capitulating to these demands.) While it is more awkward for published source code, the regulations are still in place.
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Crypto wasn't a munition, until suddenly it was. What is considered a "munition under the law" is basically anything the government wants to consider a munition, and that's effective until some lawyer paid to fight it wins the case against that ruling at the Supreme Court level...presuming the Supreme Court is willing to listen.
The definition of munition was changed to allow crypto code to be considered a munition, and it was an ex post facto change. But that didn't stop it from being legally enforceable.
I'll tell you what's gonna happen (Score:1)
Countless countries and companies are watching what is (rightfully, presumably) happening to China, and will draw the inevitable conclusion: we're friends when the US now, but what's gonna happen when they stop liking us? Better make sure we don't host anything of value at US companies...
And that's how America will manage to splinter the internet and lose their hegemony online. Silly Trump...
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Golly gee, if you don't play nice other countries won't like you! What a surprise! The difference between China and US allies is that US allies already understood that. And it is the reason they're US allies!
You don't even consider the possibility of choosing mutually-acceptable behavior. Yeah, if you know you're gonna do shit that is going to piss of the US, maybe don't build your economy to rely on the US?
the developers can't be that dumb (Score:1)
if you can't access github indirectly turn in your geek card
Start their own. (Score:1)
I'm sure the Chinese Government will more than happily put up a GitHub clone of their own, then at least they can spy on their own country's source code and lock out external companys outside China.
GNU says no? (Score:2)
I'm not sure how legally explicit the GNU license is here, but this would definitely be against it's spirit (essentially discrimination in re-distribution, regardless of the reasons should not be allowed)... When I submit open source code to GitHub it does not belong to the US government, it is not an exclusive license.
Looks like the US is going to become more and more segregated from the rest of the world, at their loss, because sci-hub equivalents will just pop up everywhere, this isn't even a US legal is
Re:As I sit here drinking coffee (Score:2)