Should Retraining Programs for Laid-Off Retail Workers Include Computer Programming? 233
Appearing on ABC, former Chicago Mayor and Obama White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel on Friday volunteered some suggestions for an economic recovery plan that America's next president could implement. "One of the things we've got to do to rebuild, mainly on infrastructure," he begins, before switching to additional ideas for also offering a more promising future to laid-off retail workers by trying to train them for better jobs. "There's going to be people like at JCPenney and other retail — those jobs aren't coming back. Give them the tools..."
One such possible job he offered as an example? Computer programming. "Six months, you're going to become a computer coder. We'll pay for it.... we need to give them a lifeline to what's the next chapter." He believes lots of people would be interested. Although before any of that, Rahm stressed, "The first part of the stimulus is creating a floor so the economy doesn't sink any more. You can't get an economy growing if states and companies are laying people off."
While computer programming was apparently meant as just one example of possible jobs training programs, this appears to have been twisted into claims that Rahm Emanuel believes millions of laid off retail workers should become computer programmers.
Long-time Slashdot reader theodp does point out that Emanuel has held a long-standing faith in the potential of computer science education. ("Before leaving office, Emanuel worked to make Computer Science a high school graduation requirement beginning with the Class of 2020, although the Chicago Public Schools waived the requirement this year, citing the pandemic.") But is that also one possible solution for older generations who didn't receive computer science training in high school?
What do Slashdot's readers think? Leave your own thoughts in the comments. Should the retraining programs offered to laid-off retail workers include computer programming?
One such possible job he offered as an example? Computer programming. "Six months, you're going to become a computer coder. We'll pay for it.... we need to give them a lifeline to what's the next chapter." He believes lots of people would be interested. Although before any of that, Rahm stressed, "The first part of the stimulus is creating a floor so the economy doesn't sink any more. You can't get an economy growing if states and companies are laying people off."
While computer programming was apparently meant as just one example of possible jobs training programs, this appears to have been twisted into claims that Rahm Emanuel believes millions of laid off retail workers should become computer programmers.
Long-time Slashdot reader theodp does point out that Emanuel has held a long-standing faith in the potential of computer science education. ("Before leaving office, Emanuel worked to make Computer Science a high school graduation requirement beginning with the Class of 2020, although the Chicago Public Schools waived the requirement this year, citing the pandemic.") But is that also one possible solution for older generations who didn't receive computer science training in high school?
What do Slashdot's readers think? Leave your own thoughts in the comments. Should the retraining programs offered to laid-off retail workers include computer programming?
Nah. (Score:5, Funny)
Train them to be civil engineers instead. We really need people to shore up our crumbling infrastructure.
Six months, you'll be a civil engineer!
Re:Nah. (Score:5, Informative)
Let's be realistic. Someone working in retail is unlikely to have the potential to be either a software developer or a civil engineer. If they had the math background and abstract reasoning skills needed for those professions, they wouldn't be working at Walmart in the first place.
It would be better to target blue-collar trades. But these should be taught in high school. When I went to high school (many decades ago) I learned enough about woodworking and metalworking to work as either a carpenter or machinist. Yet today, my kids' high school teaches neither of those skills. It isn't even an option.
Re:Nah. (Score:5, Insightful)
What you say is just plain wrong. Many smart people don't get an education, or don't know they are capable of it, or possibly have some other reasons why they can't get a better job.
Re:Nah. (Score:5, Insightful)
What you say is just plain wrong.
It is wrong in the political sense that we are supposed to believe that "everyone is equal" and anyone can achieve their dreams if they just believe in them.
But in reality, that is hogwash. Most people aren't capable of getting an engineering degree just like most people are never going to be NBA players.
Many smart people don't get an education
Sure, and this program would help those people. But is it a good use of tax dollars to put 10,000 people through a training program that results in 20 of them getting fantastic jobs, and the rest wasting six months of their lives? Or is it better to be realistic, and focus on trade skills that maybe half of them can achieve?
Re:Nah. (Score:4, Insightful)
Created equal is a HUGE different from equally capable or equal in any other sense of the word. If you disagree with this, then you must thing every one is equal in all athletics also. So why are there athletic scholarships if everyone can do everything equally?
""Six months, you're going to become a computer coder." Same goes for being a heart surgeon or #1 tennis player or hey with six months training you will be a millionaire too!
Folks don't need computer programming or computer science. Maybe computer familiarity and logical thinking.
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Beyond aptitude, some people wouldn't enjoy it.
I have been doing it for 25 years. I could have been an accountant, but I would have hated every minute of it. Suggesting people do what is essentially algebra and logic equations for a living would send most people running in the other direction.
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The key is to not have a one size fits all approach. Start with a very basic intro class (but please, not BASIC) to see who has an interest and aptitude. Many will have neither and they can move on to something more suitable. The few who do can continue beyond introductory classes.
Other options should include wood and metal shop (certainly including various welding skills). Plumbing and electrician come to mind.
Others may prefer accounting or culinary arts.
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Brilliant! I know, we can start with one day of coding, across the entire public school system - we can use that to identify those individuals that demonstrate exceptional ability, then we can offer them HTML classes so they can become webmasters, and who knows, if they pick up enough PHP we could expose them to Python, then whammo! Who needs H1-B visa workers, we'll have programmers!
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But..but...unicorn farts and pixie dust!!
That's where the flavor comes from.
Re:Nah. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, there are the rare, few people working retail with the skills to become software engineers. The vast majority can't. That's part of the reason why these people are in food or retail in the first place. The majority of the people working these jobs don't have the education or brains to do software development. Like me, the few that can are super rare. And, they're likely heading down some career path already.
And frankly, people need to stop promoting these six month training programs for developers. They're not particularly good programs. They don't cover enough topics for everything a developer should know. If you can succeed in these programs, then you should go for the bachelors degree. That is a far better education that will serve you better over time than some random 6 month program. These programs seem more about separating the hopeful from their money rather than providing good, solid job skills.
Re:Nah. (Score:5, Insightful)
Amen. The rise of for profit schools teaching "professions" should be curtailed. At least do not allow students gov. backed loans to attend those schools. That would dry up many of them.
States also need to stop pulling money out of state supported higher education. It will be difficult now but they can at least plan to bulk those schools up properly, i.e., do not let them piss off the money on administration. Many states pop. have this idea that they do not want to educate their kids because they'll leave an go to another state. The states are all in this together. The Fed. Dept. of Education could help here, but currently is has been corrupted by the alleged administration. Jesus doesn't teach the humanities or science.
Re:Nah.,,, except (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been grinding code for 40 years. Recently I met a guy who did the 12-week coding camp $4k thing, and hit got a good paying programming job writing web code for a big company. A year later, he's still there and doing well. All the other examples I've heard of these schools isn't as rosy.
But let's cut to the real chase - I know a bunch of 20 somethings and 30 somethings. I've offered to teach them how to code. None are interested, and I suspect most wouldn't have the aptitude. I think we're barking up the wrong tree is we think we can tell people what to learn. People want to make their own choices, not get forced into coding camps.
Why don't we ask them?
Re:Nah.,,, except (Score:5, Insightful)
This is where I think UBI would fundamentally change our society. UBI lets you try and fail in your 20s and 30s. 3-4 people can pool their UBI, rent a house, and try new things. They can try to write a novel, become a photographer, start up a food truck, learn to code, whatever. And if after 6 months to a year they don't like it or suck at it, they can move on to something else, and they don't lose their housing or have to move back in with mom and dad [pewresearch.org].
At some point hopefully they'll find something that they can make money doing and enjoy and are good at.
If would be massively easier to figure out what you want to do with your life if you had a safety net to catch you as you figured out what you can't do or don't like doing.
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I'm just old fashion. I expect people in 20's and 30's to be adults and contributing to society instead of sucking off my grandchildren's credit card. If they don't know
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The majority of the people working these jobs don't have the education or brains to do software development.
I think that it's more likely to be not having the mindset for software development than any lack of intelligence. I used to see a lot of people in my college programming classes who consistently struggled with the programming assignments, and many of them did better than I in the math classes we would sometimes share. It's a different way of thinking, and it can't always be trained -- and certainly not with the cheap "learn programming in six months" classes.
Might be "wrong" but not incorrect (Score:3)
Re: Nah. (Score:3)
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You're right! No one is the public school system or in their own family recognized they were capable of doing anything more complex than be a retail clerk in a department store, and of course, since no one believed in them or encouraged them, they simply went through life taking whatever job they could get.
Or, perhaps, they were waiting around for those "shovel-ready jobs" and when they failed to materialize, they were forced to take the only jobs available.
You're condescending attitude is only exceeded by
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> Let's be realistic
> If they had the math background and abstract reasoning skills needed for those professions
Give me a break. Anybody that can throw coal into a furnace can learn how to program for god sake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Re: Nah. (Score:2)
Re:Nah. (Score:5, Informative)
It would be better to target blue-collar trades.
Let me guess, you probably don't work in the trades. You hired some guy to fix your broken HVAC system, and assumed they must be making bank because the bill made you shit a brick?
Well, reality check.. There's a ton of overhead* in running a trade business and most of that money you spent went towards the cost of running the business, not into the pocket of the guy who came out and futzed around with your furnace for an hour.
* Including: Four types of insurance (liability, bonding, worker's comp, and automotive), local business taxes and fees, state business taxes and licensing fees, mortgage/rental of the business location, utility costs at the business location, equipment rental, vehicle financing, vehicle fuel, vehicle maintenance, tool purchasing/replacement, consumable material costs, advertising costs, and labor costs (wages and related employer contributions). That's also assuming you do your own accounting and don't get sued. If you need an accountant or lawyer, there's those too. Running a business is expensive.
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Let me guess, you probably don't work in the trades.
Not currently. But I have a CNC mill in my garage and I have worked as a machinist in the past.
The is an overlap of machining with coding. I wrote plenty of Python scripts to generate G-code [wikipedia.org] to control the spindle and position of the cutting heads. G-code is also used to control 3D printers for additive manufacturing and is used for industrial robots.
Re: Nah. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yep. But when I see 1 hour of time billed at 200+ for a guy to come and replace the draft inducer or blower fan on my furnace, plus another couple hundred for parts that run at most 150, I infer that the dude is still making good money. Not Google code monkey money, but better than stocking shelves at JC Penney. And I'll bet that if you took all the retail workers at JC Penney, you're going to be able to make more good plumbers and electricians and HVAC guys out of them than you are coders.
I'm quite happy paying that. I'm a well payed engineer, presumably making more than a HVAC person. But HVAC isn't a trivial skill set and I'd rather not be doing it. I don't begrudge a HVAC person getting payed to do HVAC things one bit.
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My cousin, in his mid 20's, does tool and die maintenance. He could pretty much pack up and go anywhere in the country and easily find a very well paying job.
The jobs are there and it's a good alternative to traditional 4 year university.
Re:Nah. (Score:4, Insightful)
Plus, these are trades that are always needed (like nursing).
Plus, these are trades that aren't easily displaced by overseas competition.
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Re:Machinist (Score:3)
You have to have a well developed attention to detail of you want to be a machinist. The days of manual lathe and mill operation are coming to an end. If you can't handle CNC machines, and the inherent risk of trashing thousands of dollars of tooling every time you hit GO... it's not for you.
You'll be responsible for taking large heavy expensive pieces of material, and removing just the right amount of chips to get all the required dimensions within tolerances that can range down to 1/40th the thickness of
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Let's be realistic. Someone working in retail is unlikely to have the potential to be either a software developer or a civil engineer. If they had the math background and abstract reasoning skills needed for those professions, they wouldn't be working at Walmart in the first place.
It would be better to target blue-collar trades. But these should be taught in high school. When I went to high school (many decades ago) I learned enough about woodworking and metalworking to work as either a carpenter or machinist. Yet today, my kids' high school teaches neither of those skills. It isn't even an option.
That is precisely the snobbery and bias in tech that prevents people from moving in. If no one gives them a chance, then they are stuck. And I have seen some pretty talented people have to take lower paying jobs during bad times only to be locked out of tech because of the nonsense of if they were any good, they would have a tech job. You are your last job, unfortunately, and there is no upward mobility in the USA anymore.
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I'd say give them a few weeks to try out coding. Simple stuff, like most of us did when we were nine or ten. If they get that thrill most of us got from making a computer say "Hello world", or solving a few simple problems, then they'll do okay. Coding is about the love of it, even when it gets tough, or despite when it gets tough. I haven't done any proper coding in nearly a decade, and finally sunk my teeth into a project (I'm lucky I'm in a position to largely set my own duties, providing I get the tedio
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I'd say give them a few weeks to try out coding. Simple stuff, like most of us did when we were nine or ten.
But why didn't they try it when they were nine or ten?
If you want to learn to code, there are oceans of opportunity out there. There are hundreds of FREE websites that teach coding.
If these people never had the initiative to put their toe in the ocean, will throwing tax dollars at them make a difference?
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I didn't start seriously cooking until a year ago. Christ, I'd never made mashed potatoes until last year. Why? Didn't have to and thought I couldn't. And yet here I am, nearly fifty and teaching myself to cook.
Coding isn't some sort of Arthurian sword from the stone.
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I had a successful career in Software and IT until a few years ago. since then I got laid off 3 times and I am currently working in a super market. I have an MS degree.
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I talked to the few that were there and recognised that most of them were in the process of leaving/being pushed out.
To me, that was the writing on the wall. I had to consider the reality that I am shorter than average and very odd-looking (I am quite asymmetrical).
I found a job full of ugly old guys. I am now in my 50's and I consider a lot
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Someone working in retail is unlikely to have the potential to be either a software developer or a civil engineer.
You do realize people might be working in retail while they get their degree in programming or civil engineering, don't you? That's like saying someone who collects garbage can't go to Harvard [cnn.com].
Or maybe they're going for a business degree and this is both a way to earn money and get firsthand experience.
Hell, for all we know, a bartender can graduate cum laude from school and go on to become a U [vanityfair.com]
Re: Nah. (Score:2)
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You do realize people might be working in retail while they get their degree in programming or civil engineering, don't you?
Those people would not be interested in the coding boot camp.
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Let's be realistic. Someone working in retail is unlikely to have the potential to be either a software developer or a civil engineer.
Ironically much of the retail world is staffed by students currently in higher education. Me, I worked at Gamestop during my engineering degree.
But I think you and the GP miss something more fundamental: This industry won't disappear. It may be temporarily closed but one thing was clear when the COVID restrictions were lifted the first time is that people actually *prefer* retail experiences if for no other reason than going out and looking at things or hanging out in a shoppingcentre.
These jobs will be nee
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i would like to mod this a/c up as insightful.
a/c comments are worthless.
this comment is gold.
now i must now rethink my lifes choices
The Myth that Will Never Die (Score:2)
...We really need people to shore up our crumbling infrastructure.
Our Infrastructure Is Not 'Crumbling.' Repeat: Our Infrastructure Is Not 'Crumbling' [reason.com]
Despite What You've Heard, 'Crumbling Infrastructure' Is A Myth [investors.com]
The Myth of America's 'Crumbling' Infrastructure [nationalreview.com]
"Our Roads Are Crumbling" and Other Infrastructure Myths [fee.org]
The Fallacy of America's "Crumbling Infrastructure [advisorperspectives.com]
Yes (Score:4, Insightful)
Why the hell shouldn't it?
It's definitely not a panacea or even remotely close but I don't see why anyone would exclude it from skills-based retraining. Frankly that this is even a question posed by slashdot is a bi dumb
Retraining on "computers" is super cheap (Score:2)
So making programming available might cause cash strapped cities to funnel workers into generic crap programs with little or nor real job opportunities. That's what the concern is.
Re: Retraining on "computers" is super cheap (Score:2)
I learned to code by coding, but only after taking a formal class with an instructor and a formal curriculum and homework assignments and peers first year of college. Not sure if I could have done it purely by myself. Kinda the point of a formal education, no?
The wife tried several times. From a book, from a
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Agreed, this is basic. Thinking most of these workers would successfully transition to software development is silly, but many of them could. Why wouldn't software development be one of the options for retraining? Six months of dedicated training could prepare almost any motivated person to become useful to an employer at the entry level. They would have an uphill climb to hit the big salaries in the field, but making $60k-$80k as a mid-range developer is reachable with a few years of experience after that
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Look we have outsourced so much of our industries the only thing left was Retail. We outsource most of what we produce, or automate the rest. People used to say we have become a nation of Starbucks employees (ie retail). A big chunk of programming jobs exist supporting our retail industry in some way or another, whether thats accounting software, point of sales, online e-commerce, etc. Look how bad things imploded when the housing market collapsed. Not everyone owned houses but there were a lot of jobs that
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I guess the question is how many people can reach a decent level of competence.
No. (Score:2, Interesting)
Give them classes in algorithmic thinking and teach them to write flow charts.
Mention programming briefly. If they're interested, they'll be interested. If not, they can't do that job, sorry Wilbur.
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Most of my programming has been in the context of my jobs working in management and finance. I've only held one job that I considered solidly a mix of coding and network admin. Every other job was either as a bookkeeper, finance manager, or manager. Being able to code has allowed me to automate big parts of those roles, as well as do a helluva lot of analysis. Throw in my modest statistics training, and it's a pretty valuable skill set that may not lead to anything approaching full time programming.
Nope (Score:2)
Re:Nope (Score:4, Insightful)
What is it about coding that people seem to think is a teachable skill to the man in the street?
That has me puzzled as well. I think it might have something to do with the fact that most professions have been fenced about with required diplomas, qualifications, certifications, and the only way to get in on that profession is to more or less follow a prescribed path. Many programmers however have been (and still are) to a large degree self-taught. Many might have gotten a college diploma, but often it's not in CS or a related field. And while asking for all manner of certificates is all the rage these days, I know many employers looking for programmers will drop those requirements if a good self-taught candidate comes along.
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Yeah because your average retail worker will make a great coder right?
Probably not, but there are certainly some people in that group that would, so why not give them the chance. Trying to find the best thing to train out of work people in is a fools errand, instead we need to find as many things as possible and give them some bloody options. The majority of people are not cut out to be programmers, nor teachers, nor electricians, nor plumbers, nor English teachers, but most of them is suitable for at least 1 of those, so the more options that are provided to the most people,
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As dumb as my answer is going to sound, I'm going to say: Hollywood.
Programming is always shown as some kind of fancy magic that can accomplish miracles and companies today make stuff that is so amazing that people want to be part of the game.
There may also be a snowball effect here, some idiot starting this trend and now everybody is just copying it.
How about infrastructure jobs instead? (Score:5, Insightful)
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There will always be a need for infrastructure jobs like plumbers, electricians, construction workers, and carpenters. How about we focus on building and maintaining our infrastructure instead of building the next tech bubble.
And how many of those folks do you see driving around in a shiny new Tesla? In most of the country, trades barely pay a living wage as it is. People want high-paying jobs, not realizing that the catch is, the reason those jobs are high-paying is because most people aren't able to do them. There's only so many people who can earn a rockstar coder's salary.
Re:How about infrastructure jobs instead? (Score:4, Informative)
"And how many of those folks do you see driving around in a shiny new Tesla?"
More than you'd think. Except they tend to get shiny new pickup trucks that are much more expensive than mid-model Teslas.
You can make a LOT of money as a plumber or electrician, and the demand is not going away. "The trades" you talk about that don't make money are "guys who carry stuff around for actual electricians and plumbers." If you want to make real money in those trades, though, you get a job, spend a few years learning, and start your own plumbing and electrical business.
When you see those "plumbers only make $50,000" stories, that doesn't include a lot of contracting business owners. There's a lot of one owner/plumber and one assistant" shops out there.
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Laid-off retail workers aren't going to be opening their own shop. They absolutely will be starting as the folks who "carry the tools around for the real tradesman". Here in FL, we have such a glut of folks willing to do that sort of work, that the theme parks actually pay better. Or rather, they would if Covid-19 hadn't killed attendance and caused massive layoffs. Arguably, telling tourists to check their lap bar is far less shitty than crawling through fiberglass in a 115F attic.
As for starting your
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"And how many of those folks do you see driving around in a shiny new Tesla?"
Hopefully none of them if they are smart.
If I'm selecting a contractor, I will not hire the one in the Porsche, the Ferrari or the Lambo either.
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To be fair, I don't think there's anything as shiny as a stainless steel Cybertruck.
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Re: How about infrastructure jobs instead? (Score:4, Insightful)
This. People are forgetting that programmers are *easy* to offshore. The trades, not so much.
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There will always be a need for infrastructure jobs like plumbers, electricians, construction workers, and carpenters.
Biden is expected to become the President in 2021. He will likely tear down the wall (either physically, or figuratively by stopping most border enforcement), signaling to millions of Mexican plumbers and carpenters that they can come in and compete with US workers.
If you'd focus on these trades, you may be training people for jobs that are about to be taken up by illegals / outsourced.
Right now construction / electricians are heavily unionized so I doubt they will take it lying dow
Re:How about infrastructure jobs instead? (Score:4, Interesting)
The trades pay very well and require a surprising amount of knowledge and skill to do properly. And while the hand of regulation is heavy in some areas, there is generally a very good reason. Natural gas or electricity are dangerous when implemented improperly. While I am a retired IT consultant, my son decided to be an electrician and is starting his own business. There is a great demand for those skills. And getting your hands dirty is a perfectly ok thing. There is something to the satisfaction of looking at a thing and saying ... I made that.
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"There will always be a need for infrastructure jobs like plumbers, electricians, construction workers, and carpenters."
No, version 2.0 of the 3D house-printer will print the cables and 'series of tubes' for the plumbering together with the walls. :-)
Real Soon Now.
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The house 3D-printers will not "print" cables and pipes, don't be silly.
They'll simply insert them in the cavities they make while printing the house.
Not everyone is cut out for programming (Score:3)
It's nice to think you can train anyone to do anything but it just isn't so.
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It's government policy: Got to make those unemployed masses take responsibility for corporations not creating jobs. While corporations demand more training, that's true for entry-level jobs only. (Thus, by definition, making those jobs skilled and no longer a job anyone can do.) For most corporate jobs, one needs the job to get the job, it's been that way since the 1970s. This of course, makes those unemployed masses unsuitable, while the currently employed don't need another corporate meglomaniac.
Pr
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Wrong subject (Score:2)
In my opinion, the problem with trying to teach Computer Programming is that it requires that the student first practice "critital thinking". Code-monkeys are a dime a dozen; anyone can write code. Computer programming, on the other hand, takes effort, talent, and the ability to analyse and solve problems; the meat-and-potatoes of "critical thinking".
So, first, teach those rote followers how to apply critical thinking, then teach them programming.
Not much use (Score:2)
Most people will NEVER be GOOD programmers (Score:4, Interesting)
Why do people think programming is easy? No one expect every unemployed person to become a great artist, a sport star, an actor, a professional gambler, an accountant, a lawyer, etc., etc.
Why do people pick on programming?
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Not Harrassment (Score:5, Insightful)
Learn to Code [knowyourmeme.com]
Ample job oportunities (Score:2)
Woebegon.com (Score:2)
Where all the coders are above average....
Are there the jobs? (Score:2)
If only programming were a science.... (Score:2)
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This, exactly. The world already has enough mediocre programmers, we don't need to retrain folks who probably had mediocre performance in obsolete jobs (else they would be promoted or transferred internally rather than laid off) into even shittier programmers. Software already sucks enough as it is.
We need a corollary to Betteridge's Law stating that the answer to "should we train X to code?" is generally "No."
If the USA wants to deal with the suckitude of software, lack of diversity and the (alleged) sho
I'm sorry, but ... (Score:2)
Even given this insane assumption that they would be fit to do that, let alone *like* it, . . .
. . . whatever they will be able to code up, is already in the process of being forever automated away by me.
Most software is just elaborate data entry and display forms for databases.
The algorithms make up a tiny amount. And they are programmed by actually competent people who studied how to write algorithms.
Something, those people could never do (or they would have), just like I can't suddenly become a retail sa
sw dev vs cardiology? (Score:2)
Doubtful (Score:3)
A lot of people went into retail and service jobs because they did not want to acquire complex skills and did not want to go through the lengthy training to get the job. I doubt too many would be good at all this many years later.
The issue with learning programming as a job skill is that we are not talking about learning TAOCP (first principles coding). Most jobs require familiarity with frameworks, complex APIs and basically a lot of cruft that other people wrote and you need to internalize. Plus in many cases you need technology awareness in general (e.g. networking or databases or DOM etc). Also, there is a strong ageism culture in programming. Those fifty-year-olds will have trouble getting a job even if trained well. Put it all together and it will likely be a poor investment for society although it will surely help some.
We need to start major infrastructure projects, like rebuilding our electric grid, reinforcing our coastlines and building pumping infrastructure in low-lying areas, redesigning and then rebuilding our roads to enable self-driving cars, retrofitting whole industries for better carbon capture and waste filtration, massive investments in automating recycling (especially in automated waste segregation and classification), and we probably should start building massive air scrubbers for the entire atmosphere. If we do these things, the jobs will be there.
But also, infrastructure jobs will get automated soon enough so in the future something like two hots and a cot will be a more viable option to keep people alive after they lose jobs. Our society likely cannot afford a real UBI solution but giving people enough assistance in kind to keep them alive is certainly viable.
No. The Market is saturated. (Score:3)
Not everyone wants a job as a programmer (Score:2)
get rid of studen loans and drop need degree! (Score:2)
get rid of student loans and drop need degree!
Six months is nice but it's not an degree so it's 2-4 years of filler at high cost.
WE need more trades like schools and places like ITT / devry / etc need to get out of the degree game and be come trades only.
UOP can still has they are not just an tech school and have be there for people who can't do the college school schedule
aren't you guys already complaining about pay (Score:2)
What do YOU think the consequences will be with 5 million more programmers available?
Fracking Jobs. (Score:4, Interesting)
Specifically Geothermal Fracking. Right now, oil fracking is profitable, but those jobs will dissappear, especially as we move to Geothermal Fracking.
Just need to upgrade the heat resistance of the fracking drills and the piping. Once we can drill down and loop piping around the common geothermal hot spots that are less than 2,000 ft below ground, it becomes a viable energy source in > 50% of the world.
Unlike oil fracking, we put full loops of pipes down that lead up to normal steam generators and sent back to the loop. So we only fill the pipes with regular water (no chemicals) which never leaves the closed pipe system. No pollution - even if the pipes break, minimal hole drilling, so it very safe.
Energy of the future, just need expensive heat resistant drills and pipes.
Condescending and Insulting to the Profession (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey, why not take those retail workers and give them six months of training to become lawyers or doctors? A good software developer needs skills that are at least as cognitively demanding as either of those professions. Thinking that six months is enough to take a run-of-the-mill retail worker with no STEM background and turn them into a competent computer programmer is ludicrous and downright insulting.
Re: Condescending and Insulting to the Profession (Score:2)
Elite's ongoing disrespect for programmers (Score:4, Insightful)
I continue to be puzzled by the tech community's failure to see the obvious contempt and disrespect that our society's elites, particularly in government/politics have for computer programmers.
Every damned time some proposed political/government policy is proposed or enacted that will throw some middle- or lower-class person out of a job, a chorus of voices by the people killing those jobs arises to say "teach them to code!" - the obvious message being: coding is just sitting at a keyboard, plunking on keys, and ANYBODY can do THAT!. Former miner? He can obviously code! Former retail clerk? He can clearly code! Garbage truck driver? He can code!, Steel Mill worker? She can code!, Baker? Future coder!, etc.
The rich elite of tech who must PAY programmers adopting this attitude is understandable; THEY want to de-value the skills and make them ubiquitous as part of a scheme to convince everyone that programmers should be paid a little as possible. For tech WORKERS to accept this continuing stinking pile of insults is bizarre. There is NO other field I can think of that is used as the constant butt-covering for politicians and pie-in-the-sky "planners" who are always proposing to redesign civilization but need a place to put the huge numbers of regular working folks whose lives would be upended by the plans.
There's no chance that the masses will ever actually be taught to code - it's not just that coding well enough to justify being paid to do it is a skill and requires at least a certain mindset, but it's that government NEVER actually follows through on such plans. Government is never going to spend the billions of dollars on such re-training - particularly for people half-way or more to retirement. The people making these pronouncements are never actually serious at all; they're preparing to derail the lives of large numbers of people who they know full-well will NEVER recover from the economic harm, and they are flinging out the "we'll tech them to code (it's EASY!)" line as a disgusting political fig leaf in which they totally disrespect programmers while totally disrespecting the human beings they are preparing to hurt. They should be called out for it every time they do it, and no matter which party they belong to.
Yes, but... (Score:2)
Yes, but only if their abilities and interests are a match. You never know. There might be some decent programmers out there who just never got turned on to it. It seems unlikely. This question comes up again and again. We never learn.
It's quite routine for post-recession analysis of re-training programs to reveal that the return on investment is absolutely abysmal.
We should be looking for a general solution to that problem, if there even is one. Given that people are laid off due to decreased deman
Programming? (Score:2)
India (Score:2)
How about instead (Score:3)
We teach people critical thinking skills and some fundamentals that give them a broad technical base instead of pigeonholing them in one of the most age biased industries there is. News Anchorwomen have more protections against age discrimination than a lot of programming gigs anymore. It seems like every few months there is another ./ article talking about trying to stay relevant when you turn 40. But if we got people to think critically, develop Boolean logic, learn how to look at something and figure out roughly how it works, would that not be a better gift? I mean how many articles do I gotta read about some 28yr old millennial calling their parents to do something as mundane as changing a lightbulb in their fridge, or a tail light in their car?
What if we as a society came up with a list of fundamentals on how things work. Basic electrical, basic electronic, basic mechanical, basic thermo and chemical, basic coding logic, and so forth. Would that not make them more adaptable to a changing environment of needs rather than setting them up for another single-point-of-failure that might turn out to be too overcrowded to be useful?
MIssed it by that much [] (Score:3)
I'm not saying you have to be smarter than the average person, I'm saying you have to think in a different way than the majority of populace.
It takes an abstract way of thinking that isn't as common as you'd think.
Here's a simple test, but by no means comprehensive one...
How are you with variables?
If the first time you were taught about variables, did a light suddenly come on and they were as obvious as could be?
If so, you might have what it takes. If not, you might be able to get the hang of some limited programming or scripting, but it's unlikely you'll ever be good enough to do more, at least not on a professional level.
In my time as a teen in high school, there were people we just couldn't get to understand how things work, and they had real troubles with variables.
In college, I saw lots of people so hyped to be in their first programming course, and then couldn't properly grasp the concept of variables and ended up dropping the class, or never taking another computer class. It was a huge number around 2/3rds to 3/4s of the students.
If those numbers hold up across the country, and it's likely they will, then it would be a horrible mistake to try and train large masses of people in programming, it's just setting them up to fail and wasting huge amounts of resources on it when they should be used training people for other professions.
Why retrain at all? (Score:3)
Retail is not coal mining in a world moving away from coal mining. It's retail, temporarily closed. When the first lockdown restrictions were lifted the public overwhelmingly showed that the industry will very much be healthy post lockdown.
People like shops, people like shoppingcentres. And while a lot of people were put out of work due to COVID, that is a temporary anomaly for an industry not even Amazon has managed to kill.
Re: (Score:2)
"Learn to Code is en vogue again and not an insult."
As long as virologists misuse Excel as a database and lose data, then not even Joe Sixpack with a coding class can save us.