What Will Happen After Python Creator Guido Van Rossum Joins Microsoft? (thenewstack.io) 108
Programming columnist Mike Melanson assesses the news that Guido Van Rossum, the creator of the Python programming language, has come out of retirement to join Microsoft's developer division:
The news brought a flurry of congratulations and feature requests, though a few of the suggested features indeed, already exist. Others still were met with informative responses that make the resulting threads worth a perusal, especially if you're looking for a quick "who's who" on Twitter for the world of programming languages. Microsoft's Miguel de Icaza pointed out that this addition adds to the company's now growing list of language designers and contributors:
"The developer division at Microsoft now employs the language designers and contributors to Python, Java, JavaScript, Typescript, F# C#, C++. We just need some PHP, Rust and Swift magic to complete the picture."
[Microsoft senior software engineer Kat Marchán added "We actually have some early ex-moz Rust people too!"]
So, what can we expect from all of this? Is it a corporate takeover of open source, as some further down in the long list of replies always seem to suggest? Or is Microsoft planning the Frankenstein of all languages, with a little bit of this, a little bit of that? In all likelihood, you Python developers using Microsoft products probably have some good features to look forward to in the near future, and that's that, but there's always lingering fears...especially when it comes to Microsoft. As van Rossum suggests, stay tuned.
After Slashdot's earlier story, long-time reader alexgieg posted his own theory: "Several months ago the Excel folk within Microsoft asked users whether they'd like to have Python as an alternative scripting language in Office. Support for that was overwhelming, but nothing more was said on the matter since then. I guess this is Microsoft's answer."
"The developer division at Microsoft now employs the language designers and contributors to Python, Java, JavaScript, Typescript, F# C#, C++. We just need some PHP, Rust and Swift magic to complete the picture."
[Microsoft senior software engineer Kat Marchán added "We actually have some early ex-moz Rust people too!"]
So, what can we expect from all of this? Is it a corporate takeover of open source, as some further down in the long list of replies always seem to suggest? Or is Microsoft planning the Frankenstein of all languages, with a little bit of this, a little bit of that? In all likelihood, you Python developers using Microsoft products probably have some good features to look forward to in the near future, and that's that, but there's always lingering fears...especially when it comes to Microsoft. As van Rossum suggests, stay tuned.
After Slashdot's earlier story, long-time reader alexgieg posted his own theory: "Several months ago the Excel folk within Microsoft asked users whether they'd like to have Python as an alternative scripting language in Office. Support for that was overwhelming, but nothing more was said on the matter since then. I guess this is Microsoft's answer."
Worst case scenario (Score:3)
Is a fork and that will be it.
Like mysql.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Like mysql.
Or Python 2/3? ;)
Re:Worst case scenario (Score:5, Insightful)
Ya, I would not mind seeing Microsoft giving him a lecture on how not to annoy of your customer by breaking compatibility. Open source or academic programs versus commercial ones often have a difference in that the commercial ones have constraints related to the customers and users: fix bugs, make it work, maintain the old versions, don't break the compatibility when customers ugprade, etc.
That is the focus for a company is always on the customer and not on the developer getting to add their favorite features and ideas. The drawback is that at a company you don't have the freedom to just rip code out and rewrite it just because you think it looks bad or that you can do better. The cost needs to be justified.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, I've been a long time user of .Net and I really have to say that it's really nice that very little has broken over the years. I've going from .Net all the way up to 4.7 or whatever they are at now with a very large project and don't remember any major thing they changed that cause incompatibility or problems. Also, so much consistency across the framework. Compared to a lot of open source tools I've used, it just a joy to work with.
Re: Worst case scenario (Score:2)
Re: Worst case scenario (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
yeah, mandatory significant whitespace was and is completely boneheaded.
Re: (Score:2)
Is a fork and that will be it.
Like mysql.
Worst case are slight platform- and version dependent incompatibilities, 'enhancing' feature creep and tiny edge case scenarios that almost never occur according to microsoft and should not affect the normal user and only support and bug- and security for supported versions and platforms.
Then again, i'm totally willing to give van Rossum the benefit of the doubt. Let's see if the new MS can resist being the new Oracle.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1)
thank you, this helped me feel a little bit better.
Nothing good is going to happen for sure.
However, if it gets forked, Microsoft will spend a lot of time and effort delegitimizing the free software version, and that could definitely cause problems.
I'm _extremely_ surprised he went to work for M$. He doesn't need to, I'm sure financially he can retire and do what he wants, and there's an excellent chance that M$'s involvement in Python could cause problems.
I do wonder what M$'s strategy is. It's not clear
Re: Worst case scenario (Score:2)
Mandatory xkcd (Score:2)
https://xkcd.com/927/ [xkcd.com]
Re: (Score:1)
Just sink obscurely into Microsoft tarpit, his lack of talent going completely unnoticed there. I could add get whacked off by Miguel, but that would be telling.
Hi Miguel, was that you?
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Just sink obscurely into Microsoft tarpit, his lack of talent going completely unnoticed there. I could add get whacked off by Miguel, but that would be telling.
No, Miguel, I did not.
What (Score:3)
So, what can we expect from all of this? Is it a corporate takeover of open source, as some further down in the long list of replies always seem to suggest? Or is Microsoft planning the Frankenstein of all languages, with a little bit of this, a little bit of that?
Microsoft has been hiring good programming language designers for two decades now. They've built a pretty decent ecosystem from it (although the community around it sucks, and it's still too closed source. Yeah I know Mono is open but it's not great).
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: What (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Here is what you said
I asked you what specific problems you had with the open source portions of Microsoft
You replied with
I responded that I use Oracle in most of my projects, the reason being that in the enterprise where I work, the two main databases used are Oracle and SQL Server. For some reason you then come back with "Oracle isn't open so
Re: (Score:2)
Have you tried building a significant website using just the open source portions of Microsoft? I have and it's not great.
Thank you, I have been warned.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Re: (Score:2)
If the "elite" option has a longer learning curve, it may not be worth it from an economic standpoint because you spend more time learning than doing.
Programming is a dead-end career on average, to be frank, so investing too much into it may not pay off. Co's consistently throw oldbie's out. Move into management of some kind or risk getting hosed. Yes, I know there are exceptions, but one cannot tell if they are an exception ahead of time. RSI
Re: (Score:2)
If one spends 30 years programming and is always using tools designed for beginners then it seems like a bit of a waste. Productivity should go up as one gets more experience, not be stuck at the same level the whole time.
Re: (Score:1)
I've found one has to pretty much use the same tools as the rest of the team to allow staff swappability. If one does something overly "fancy", it may make it hard to service after the author leaves.
Re: (Score:2)
Programming is a dead-end career on average, to be frank, so investing too much into it may not pay off. Co's consistently throw oldbie's out. Move into management of some kind or risk getting hosed. Yes, I know there are exceptions, but one cannot tell if they are an exception ahead of time. RSI could byte your ass, for example. I'm just the messenger.
I program because I like it. Wish these people who didn't like it would leave.
Re: (Score:1)
Most people go where the money is, not where personal enjoyment is. I'm not making a value judgement on that, only saying my advice is based on that assumption because it fits what most people do.
Re: (Score:2)
I've used it. I hated it. It hurt my productivity the times I had to use it. Probably the number one reason I dislike IDEs because visual studio was such a terrible thing. Who needs a flashy gui if it slows you down? Anyone programming should become very familiar with memorizing commands and keystrokes, the attitude of "let us help you out like you are still a beginner" is not helpful for a professional tool.
Re: (Score:2)
Visual Studio Code != Visual Studio IDE. It's a cross-platform code editor with plugin support. Very little UI to get in the way, for people who like minimalist programming environments.
Re: (Score:3)
I've used Visual Studio Code. It's a decent editor with a lot of good features. Though as an Electron application I'd hardly call it minimalist, as it's actually rather heavy and chews up significant amounts of ram and CPU. Still not quite the resource hog like a lot of full blown IDE's but not nearly as lightweight as something like Vim, Notepad++, gedit, etc.
A leopard doesn't change its spots. (Score:2, Troll)
What will happen? Easy:
Embrace .
Extend.
Extinguish.
Time to switch back too perl.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
If you actually had once tried Python, you would not make such silly comments.
Re: (Score:2)
I have tried python, both 2.7 and 3.x series.
The basic programing constructs are tossed a side and replaced with nonsense! Any compitent C/C++/C# programmer would be driven to insanity.
In fact, I have never met a programmer who likes any of the C family of languages and has a hard on for Python.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, after trying a lot of things, I have now standardized on Python with C modules for the heavy lifting where needed. I guess somebody like me does not fit in your world...
Re: (Score:2)
Many I know migrated to Python.
And bottom line it is a job, not a language.
If the job is in Python you use Python, is it a different language, you use that one.
I personally find Python the most simplest language to learn, and the most elegant. (And I'm actually not even using it).
Re: (Score:2)
Actually this right here is the problem.
Someone without any programming experience picks up python and uses it for a bit, and all is fine and dandy, so they get a job that requires python and they get hired, everything is cool for a while until the project requires some C'ish language, now they have to learn C, problem is they use what they know (its what we all do) and because python doesnt play with memory the person assumes that the C'ish languages memory safe off the hop. This is why we need languages l
Re: (Score:2)
I am willing to bet, if you gave even the best python guys a DOS terminal (with no memory protection) and only a C compiler they would overwrite the memory contents of other programs more then if they really got to understand C.
Obviously. But that is completely irrelevant. Python is not used for stuff like this. And C is no longer used like that either. On top of that basically every OS has separated memory for each process, so the whole argument make no sense. Unless you work in some embedded environment o
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Python programmers usually know how to program.
No idea where your irrational Python hatred comes from or why you think a programmer using a certain language is bad in programming, because otherwise he would use a more difficult language which makes him less than 10% as effective - what is your point? Why the funk would I program anything in C that can be done in a different language in 10% of the time - and is portable about OSes without "even thinking about portability"?
Re: (Score:2)
You don't need to code in C, you need to understand why C does what it does,C is considered the fundamentals of programming for a reason, I don't need to code in Assembler (I do sometimes) but most of that knowledge is used when I look at the output of my C/C++/C# programs and say now why did the compiler think it was okay to do this, when I wanted to do this instead (x86 SIMD instructions come to mind here)
Python like Perl is easy to learn, the problem with it is, it's easy to learn, I don't care what lan
Re: (Score:2)
C is considered the fundamentals of programming for a reason :P
No, it is not
Perhaps you should once study computer science in an university?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
C teaches a person more about the system then any other compiled based language.
No it does not. What would you learn in C, that you would not learn in Pascal? Modula or even Lisp? Seriously?
not learning C makes dumpster fire coders (script kiddies)
No it does not. Why would it?
Re: (Score:2)
C doesn't baby you hardly at all, it doesn't really support object but you can kinda use structs as objects
Lisp is a family of computer languages with automatic memory management, this sien't going to teach you jack about how your CPU, Memory or I/O cards work
Pascal is dead thanks to Borland's obsession with GUI's, but still if were alive today its still too basic to truly understand exactly what is going on, its light on details and high on verbosity.
Modula is a neat idea, but its inherently broken, Since
Re: (Score:2)
Modula/Modula II does not support anything object oriented.
Pascal and C are both the same, just different syntax.
You do not even half you think you know about programming.
Lisp is a family of computer languages with automatic memory management, this sien't going to teach you jack about how your CPU, Memory or I/O cards work
Why not? Seriously? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know half?
Modula3 exists! Annnnd drum roll! It' object oriented!!!! For someone playing king compiler, I beleave it is you who is uninformed!
Pascal is not the same as C, show function call/jump tables in Pascal... Oh wait their are none, yea that looks the same, yep C has tons of verbosity like Pascal, side by side they look the same to you? Really? Someone needs their eyes checked! And pointers, Pascal's hidden booboo, yea those dont hold a candle to C's, but you know tomato tomahto right? Hows bra
Re: (Score:2)
Modula 3 is not object oriented, it is object based.
And we talked about "Modula" aka: Modula 1.
Pascal is not the same as C, show function call/jump tables in Pascal...
Only the source code is different. The compiled assembly/machine code is the same.
show function call/jump tables in Pascal
Such a term does not exist in either C or Pascal or any other language.
Do you mean "jump tables" for switch/case statements? They are the same in both languages. Or do you mean vtbles for virtual function calling in C++? N
Re: (Score:2)
To be fair, those were designed to be application-centric "glue" languages and not infrastructure-building languages. They did most gluing just fine, arguably taking less code to do that than today's options, but just didn't scale to infrastructure & stack construction. One-size-fits-all is really hard to pull off, and MS wants to grow into "big stuff" these days.
Re: (Score:2)
And what came out of that? A claim to fame for Python was that it freely stood outside the corporate world and that facilitated its wide adoption. Wide adoption is what made Python, more than any inherent feature in the language or its design. Not clear how much of that traces back to its developer or his involvement with the corporate world.
No real plan (Score:5, Interesting)
I suspect Microsoft has no real plan here. In the past Microsoft spent significant amounts of money on research and development that never led to products. Seemingly the objective was to keep skilled people on payroll and under control because these people would be a threat to Microsoft if they worked for the competition.
Python is a finished product and it's open source and managed by other people now. I don't think we need to fear that this is an attack on python.
Re: (Score:2)
And here we finally have the answer to that final step:
Creator: profit!
Re: (Score:3)
I really hope Office adopts Python scripting.
One of the last big compatibility issues with spreadsheets (of all kinds, not just Microsoft) is scripting.
MS uses VB Script, Google uses JavaScript, Libre Office supports different JavaScript and Python and their own BASIC.
It is about Excel; JavaScript vs VBA (Score:2)
Python is fashionable, Visual Basic is not.
Microsoft has been pushing hard to replace VBA with JavaScript. But the key thing to understand is that is nothing to do with replacing End Ifs with (ugly) {}s. Instead they have completely different environments.
VBA runs on the local computer. It is tightly integrated with Excel and easy for END USERS to deploy. They actually did a very good job back in the 1990s. And lots of end users do use it, for better or worse.
JavaScript runs on the Web. It requires s
Re: (Score:2)
It's not so much the language as the APIs that are the real issue. If there was a standard API, like the HTML DOM, then we could have truly portable spreadsheets.
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, you are very mistaken.
You can start any JavaScript program either with a double click, if your environment is set up correctly, or from command line, or via a helper script that you can double click.
No web server needed at all (and no browser).
Re: (Score:2)
You are talking about the programming language, which is uninteresting.
What counts here is using it with Excel.
There are some easy-to-use modes, but they do not work very well.
And nobody uses JavaScript because it is a good language. They use it *because* it works in web browsers.
It's an attack on the entire FOSS ecosystem. (Score:3)
Microsoft has been consistently evil for 30+ years. They have not changed at all. They are in Extend at the moment with WSL, etc. It's a shame we have no real DoJ.
This is essentially virtue signaling with money.
One big change (Score:5, Funny)
The most obvious change will be with Python's most controversial feature: whitespace.
Since stakeholders clearly have never unified behind tabs and/or spaces, Guido and Microsoft will now be deprecating those in favor of "Microsoft Smart Indents (TM)", which will be coded with the newly allocated codepoint U+F48EA.
One interesting side effect is that going forward, snippets of Python code posted here on Slashdot will look the following:
def foo(x):
â(TM)gzx == 3:
â(TM)gzâ(TM)gzprint("X is 3")
â(TM)gzelse:
â(TM)gzâ(TM)gzprint("X is not 3")
Re: (Score:1)
Replacing "whitespaces" for "whitetabs" you mean?
Microsoft Visual Python.net (Score:1)
Sorry, just my nostalgia coming out. Heh.
It will be a disaster of biblical proportions. (Score:2, Insightful)
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria.
Re: (Score:1)
So, no change.
Re: (Score:2)
They seem pretty happy [patreon.com] about it.
Re: (Score:1)
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: They should have thought long and hard about t (Score:2)
Frankenlanguage? (Score:1)
Moth [reddit.com] tries to kind of do that by being a universal syntax instead of a universal language. It wants to be "the XML of" imperative/Turing-Complete programming, allowing domain-specific sub-languages based on the syntax, and perhaps growing a "kit" of ready-made parts for roll-your-own languages to skip parsing concerns. It's an interesting goal even if you don't like this attempt.
In some ways, the res
P# (Score:2)
They'll make some language with syntax vaguely like Python but entirely different structure and semantics, and call it P#.
So many cooks (Score:2)
They've hired so many experts now. Microsoft must have a different recollection than I do of that aphorism about many cooks making a broth.
Fuck that... (Score:1)
Two words: (Score:2)
Visual Python
Re: (Score:2)
P#.
But, in all seriousness... the guy has pretty much completely removed himself from any leadership position in python development. So why should his hiring by Microsoft affect the language's further development at all?
Hopefully better support in Visual Studio (Score:2)
What Will Happen After Python Creator Guido Van Rossum Joins Microsoft?
Visual Studio has been stuck on version 3.7 for a while. [github.com]
t will be the embrace extend extinguish story (Score:1)
Just means we will see (Score:2)
Re: Just means we will see (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
ironic (Score:2)
open source developer becomes a snake and joins Microsoft's utterly evil corporation.
Re: ironic (Score:2)
The software industry has become a race to see who can achieve peak evil for the win!
Re: (Score:1)
an open source leader has joined one of those? Haven't heard.
He'll have to take endless D&I training (Score:2)
Funny there was "IronPython" (Score:1)
Comment removed (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
You have to customize a few things here or there, mostly for aesthetic reasons (fonts, etc.), but otherwise Notepad++ works very well under Wine, including many of its plugins.
Re: (Score:2)
Not BDFL anymore (Score:2)
Guido stepped down from being BDFL of the Python project. It's governed without him. I wish him well and hope he can bring some cool new things to Microsoft's platforms
Personally, I'd love to see 2 things, for MS to introduce Python support in Excel (which they've talked about) and also for them to get behind the Python for .NET project (not to be confused with IronPython) as it's pretty awesome to be able to access the CLR and all those .NET libraries from regular Python.
A Python for .NET Core if you wil