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Programming Communications The Internet

Freenode Apologizes as Prominent Open Source Projects Switch to Libera Chat (ubuntu.com) 122

Slashdot reader AleRunner writes: Ubuntu has announced that, with immediate effect Ubuntu's IRC channels are moving to libera.chat. The move follows a "hostile takeover" of Ubuntu's namespace by Freenode's new management that appears to be happening to many other distributions including Gentoo as well as other projects that have used Freenode [including channels associated with the programming languages Raku, Elixir, and Haskell].

For Ubuntu, and many other FOSS projects, Freenode has long been one of the major official forms of communication... With IRC channels often used for important system advice, and project communication, this becomes not just an inconvenience but even a security problem. For this reason Ubuntu's replacement network, libera.chat has a more clearly open organisational structure than Freenode had before being taken over.

"All told, it appears something like 700 irc.freenode.net channels have been seized and re-permissioned," reports The Register, "supposedly because the channels mentioned Libera Chat in violation of Freenode's advertising policy."

Wednesday Freenode owner Andrew Lee posted a blog post explaining that "in retrospect, we should have handled the action of closing down channels slightly differently..."

"The intent of doing this was not an attempt of a hostile takeover nor hijack like many people are saying. Since certain projects were disrupting their users' ability to chat on freenode via mass kicks, force closures, spam, we decided to enact this policy in those places which were deemed in violation and could cause an issue later...

"We believe we should have done this in a much more communicative way to circulate the right message and keep things transparent which of course did not happen. As we move forward I'd like to fully assure you that we will be working in complete commitment to restore projects, namespaces and channels that were closed on accident as a part of this event and we welcome them to use freenode as before as their very own homebase.

"Lastly, there are no excuses for this, and I'm willing to admit that I was wrong with Tuesday's move and apologize for the inconvenience that may have caused."
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Freenode Apologizes as Prominent Open Source Projects Switch to Libera Chat

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 2021 @10:44AM (#61434198)

    And that's that.

    New place run by nicer people anyway.

  • by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Saturday May 29, 2021 @10:44AM (#61434200) Homepage Journal

    https://matrix.org/ [matrix.org]

    • Now, if someone could optimize their IRC bridge, we'd have a win-win! Last time I tried their freenode irc links, there was too much lag. The dream is having an Ubuntu channel, for instance, that includes other platforms like IRC and Slack seamlessly, with users participating from accounts on their home server.
    • Usenet (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mi ( 197448 )

      Matrix-shamtrix. Usenet was — and remains — the decentralized means of communication for groups of people, large and small. And your computer, likely, even already has the client for it, because NNTP is such a (very) well-known protocol.

      • If Usenet is still a thing, it's just barely a thing. Why is that? What's to stop people bringing it back?

        Something about the server peer connections?

        Something about spam?
        • by mi ( 197448 )

          If Usenet is still a thing, it's just barely a thing.

          This and everything else you wrote can be repeated about the IRC just as well.

      • by Junta ( 36770 )

        Not any more decentralized than IRC, and not designed for real-time communication, but rather forums (e.g. you would connect to an nntp server, download what you wanted and then you had it online). Also not designed for security, meaning information can get into the network without any sort of integrity assurance.

        Basically, a modern chat solution (like matrix) is a combination of IRC and NNTP requirements. Both providing real-time communication but also preserving chat history and being able to send someone

        • by mi ( 197448 )

          Not any more decentralized than IRC, and not designed for real-time communication

          I agree, that IRC complements Usenet. But I'd argue, the support-needs of Ubuntu and similar enterprises neither need the "real-time" promise of the IRC, nor use it, where available.

          There remains a perfectly-functional comp.unix.bsd hierarchy, for example, where announcements are made, questions are asked and answered. comp.lang.* are alive and well too.

          The centralized model — like that of the StackExchange — works

          • by Junta ( 36770 )

            I agree, that IRC complements Usenet. But I'd argue, the support-needs of Ubuntu and similar enterprises neither need the "real-time" promise of the IRC, nor use it, where available.

            In my experience, the real-time behavior is really desired. You could make the rational argument that they don't need it, but people want it.

            You can choose to only trust PGP-signed postings on all or some of the forums. No problem...

            Like a huge amount of other things awkwardly bolted on, that's no where near as nice as it being embedded in the platform. Notably, people I communicate with on Matrix I have gotten them *all* to do key exchange with me. Of those same people, I only ever got one to bother to do PGP in any communication channel with me. And he even stopped because he wanted to use the b

            • by mi ( 197448 )

              In my experience, the real-time behavior is really desired.

              Not for tech-support needs... You cannot expect an expert to be available for you 24x7 — not even, when you have a support contract.

              Like a huge amount of other things awkwardly bolted on

              Like "Matrix" is on the Internet?

              Notably, people I communicate with on Matrix I have gotten them *all* to do key exchange with me.

              Now, that's a subset! Have you tried getting people to install Matrix just to communicate with you? What's your success rate there?

              • by Junta ( 36770 )

                Not for tech-support needs... You cannot expect an expert to be available for you 24x7 — not even, when you have a support contract.

                But once you *have* someone's attention, you don't want to be crafting messages, pushing you rmessage, waiting for the other party to bother getting the data, and repeating the process each time. You want a "type question, get response, type follow-up question, etc).

                Now, that's a subset! Have you tried getting people to install Matrix just to communicate with you? What's your success rate there?

                Pretty high, they just use their browser. A javascript client in a browser availing itself of local storage can actually have offline e2e encryption keys in a way the service provider isn't able to mess with.

                And then, of course, comes the question, whether you can even trust Matrix' encryption — an inevitable dilemma with all proprietary software, that's nice and easy for as long as your usage of it remains within, what the engineers envisioned.

                The source code is in the open, and debugging tools can validate the browser client is acting as promised, and that the mechanisms of proof are handled at the endpoint rather than on their servers. It's not proprietary. It's an open standard with open clients and servers.

                Yeah, with Usenet you have that option too... Which is, kind of, my point.

                You cannot have e2e encryption automatically with nntp when a user goes to a browser for a web gateway to nntp.

    • Or, you know, something without centralized authentication (does it still have that?) that's been around for ages like Jabber/XMPP.

      • Matrix has never had centralized authentication. It has always been federated just like XMPP - though with decentralized rooms, unlike XMPP's centralized MUCs.
  • So predictable, the language.

  • Pretty bad move (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DeHackEd ( 159723 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @10:52AM (#61434210) Homepage

    I was originally hoping to see if this would all fizzle out and the new freenode wasn't really a bad thing. But with all eyes on Freenode they did pull out a (metaphorical) gun and shoot themselves in the foot. My opinion has been solidified.

    A channel I had control over was also affected. I'm keeping it up in a "seized" state for posterity.

    Sigh...

  • by Snowhare ( 263311 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @10:59AM (#61434232)

    These kinds of unforced errors where someone flash burns an organization to the ground because they think their completely commodity product is somehow indispensable to their users and their users won't just leave en-mass if you abuse them for your own benefit....

    • i wished that would happen to Facebook, and zuckerberg lose a few billion in the process, and he wont be smart enough to keep whats left and he is not smart enough to come up with another idea to get rich forcing him to work for a living
  • Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

    by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @11:00AM (#61434236)

    You know things are bad when you can't even make your BS explanation sounds convincing:

    As you are aware, over the last few weeks, we’ve been seeing an increasing amount of spam from other networks intending to mislead and influence long term running projects, namespaces and channels into moving to another new network which was formed parallel to freenode. While group contacts from the channels did not contact freenode staff directly, we were rather surprised when we received reports of unpleasant elements operating in the background and influencing these projects, namespaces and channels with false information in order to harm freenode’s administration and staff members’ images and paint a false narrative altogether.

    Long story short, rich guy recognizes that Freenode has huge name recognition but no book value, and figures there's a money making opportunity.

    So rich guy gains control of Freenode through dubious means but doesn't actually grasp that the value of his acquisition depends entirely on maintaining the goodwill of the users, goodwill that is quickly lost when the means of his acquisition are revealed.

    An exodus of the users predictably starts, and true to form the rich guy engages in a heavy handed unethical means of damage control, making the situation even worse.

    The upside of the whole thing is that projects will ensure their new infrastructure are not susceptible to such shenanigans in the future.

    • The upside of the whole thing is that projects will ensure their new infrastructure are not susceptible to such shenanigans in the future.

      How will they do that when fundamentally this isn't a technological problem, but a people one?

      • Who cares? Moving servers is trivial.

      • Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)

        by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @12:14PM (#61434414)

        The upside of the whole thing is that projects will ensure their new infrastructure are not susceptible to such shenanigans in the future.

        How will they do that when fundamentally this isn't a technological problem, but a people one?

        By ensuring the new infrastructure is not susceptible to such shenanigans in the future.

        From the sounds of it Freenode didn't have a lot of funding and the corporate/governing structure made it possible for the "head of staff" to sell it off without anyone knowing.

        So the projects need to make sure the sponsors are sufficient (and reputable) and have their lawyers review the paperwork to make sure it can't be secretly sold off.

        • From the sounds of it Freenode didn't have a lot of funding and the corporate/governing structure made it possible for the "head of staff" to sell it off without anyone knowing.

          Well that's the thing, it actually didn't. From all available information, there *was* no legitimate sale (christel did not actually own the network), but it was enough of an excuse to legally strongarm the remaining staff into handing over the network, under threat of ruinous lawsuits.

          In other words, the takeover was accomplished by

      • by v1 ( 525388 )

        How will they do that when fundamentally this isn't a technological problem, but a people one?

        A big part of the freenode issue is the legal definition of control. It's basically a legal dictatorship, and that's why they decided to move to libra - it MIGHT be possible to legaly dispute the many promises that were broken to effect the changes, but they've got strong legal backing for their control, so there's a good chance they'll throw a lot of money at it and still lose.

        Libra on the other hand has a much m

  • Historic... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by beheaderaswp ( 549877 ) * on Saturday May 29, 2021 @11:07AM (#61434260)

    Watch closely friends. This is probably the last time we will see an old-school internet drama played out. They were commonplace in the 1990s and 2000s. This may be the last one. Worth watching to see how the genesis of the internet sorted out it's power problems.

    The old dramas usually played out on usenet or irc. Even further back you could find them on fidonet.

    Let's have a moment of silence for TYBO and the Digital Amish.

    Carry on...

    • Yeah, I was thinking about that too. I didn't really pay as much attention to the behind-the-scenes dramas back then, but I seem to recall a couple of gardening channels I liked to chat on that ended up moving to the then-new Undernet because of (vaguely remembered) similar nerd politics issues.

      Side note - we talked about actual gardening, as in growing vegetables and fruit and stuff. This turned out to be rather confusing to certain people who apparently (and inexplicably) used "gardening" as a code word m

      • Agreed...

        In my case I was privy to all the fun on comp.sys.mail.admin (is that right?!?! too many years)

        It was a great place to learn the vagaries of running a mail server. But the arguments between the mail admins and ISPs could only be described as "epic". Companies were made and destroyed... and they all sold out to corporate entities eventually.

        There was the time when an open mail relay was considered "virtuous". These things changed.

  • by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @11:12AM (#61434270)

    Not a new thing.

  • by DreamMaster ( 175517 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @11:15AM (#61434282) Homepage

    The #scummvm group also just finished it's IRC channel to Libera.chat. We just couldn't trust Freenode anymore, for good reason.

    • by jmccue ( 834797 )

      I was a bit worried about going to #scummvm, did not know what to expect. From it wiki:

      ScummVM is a program which allows you to run certain classic adventure and role-playing games

      I may need to look into this further

      • by ChatHuant ( 801522 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @01:15PM (#61434546)

        I was a bit worried about going to #scummvm, did not know what to expect.

        SCUMM (Script Creation Utility for Maniac Mansion) is an ancient video game engine developed by Lucasfilm Games. It was notably used for the original Monkey Island trilogy: The Secret of Monkey Island, Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge and The Curse of Monkey Island.

        ScummVM lets you play some of those old SCUMM games on modern computers, or even phones. I tried it a few years ago, and it worked pretty well.

  • by xack ( 5304745 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @11:30AM (#61434328)
    I’m waiting for a group of independent browsers such as Vivaldi and Brave to stop depending on Chromium and waiting for scientists to fork Wikipedia away from the abusive admins.

    I remember when Xfree86 died and Xorg took over, we finally got autoconfig instead of relying on Xfree86config. Openoffice.org and Mysql died when Oracle did their abuse as well.
  • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @12:09PM (#61434402)

    The last Slashdot story on Freenode looked like spat between a bunch of employees and their management. Lots of he said, she said kind of bullshit. One side (volunteers) had some better cited examples but ultimately it was a bunch of fingerpointing where volunteers said the new management was majorly malicious, and new management said the volunteers were crazy overreacting.

    Well turns out new management appears to be batshit crazy not only malicious to its own volunteers, but to the active community at large. RIP Freenode 1998-2021

  • freenode? wait...my memory fades....wasn't that some kind of irc thing once before librachat? sort of like AOL or myspace was...

  • by dgp ( 11045 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @12:33PM (#61434462) Journal

    Rather than waiting matrix.org to setup a bridge, which they already seem to have their hands full with the freenode bridge, Libera made the interesting choice of setting up a bridge and homeserver under the libera.chat domain. Its setup in such a way that its trivial to join irc channels, just join the matrix channel #:libera.chat. There's no name-mangling or namespace shenanigans, and the server name is a nice reminder of what irc network you're interacting with.

    Its so easy in fact, that I suspect Libera will become as much a Matrix network as an IRC network, if not more so.

  • there are some forum solutions (like Steem/Hive) around but an actual chat would be useful. (there's no need to store assets on the blockchain itself - just the messages, so space is not an issue. and, there are a few dapp-friendly blockchains around already.) for someone reason no one bothered yet. it's not even impossible to make it work with IRC...

  • by williamyf ( 227051 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @02:14PM (#61434706)

    It was well loved among the FOSS community.

    Then the original management/founders sold it, and along came new owners/managers...

    They did some changes that were considered shitty by the community.

    They stood their ground, and SourceForge began to slowly decline...

    Only the sale of the company and the arrival of new Owners/Managers reversed the dick moves, and somewhat restored a little bit of faith of the FOSS comminity in SourceForge...

    So, I'd sugest to wait until FreeNode's change of owners and Managers to see how things play out.

    • There's nothing to own here but the domain name. The server hosting is donated, the admins and channel ops are all volunteers.

      The mistake the new idiot Lee made was assuming the value was in the userbase when the value was the volunteers. And the volunteers didn't like this "explanations" for heavy handed tactics. They started leaving and advertising their channels were moving to new locations so confused users didn't result.

      The Lee did the same thing he did before, he employed heavy handed tactics against

  • They need to change their name to Censornode now because you are no longer free to discuss your move to another server, and I'm sure there'll be other topics censored in the future.
  • This is not just killing the goose that lays the golden egg but taking the last example of the species and vapourising it. Hudson did this and Jenkins arrived immediately. Oracle did this with Solaris, MySQL and the JRE.

    Freenode is now wholly worthless and the person most obviously behind it is persona non grata, effective immediately. Donors of servers / bandwidth / hosting to Freenode - pull it because you won't gain glory by association. Andrew Lee hasn't covered himself with glory here and has terminated any reputation he retained with extreme prejudice, whatever you might choose to say about the libera.chat admins.

    Meh, who cares? Some of us still use IRC daily - to be honest, I'm surprised more projects like Ubuntu, Alma Linux and co didn't just move to OFTC.

  • Absolute BS (Score:5, Informative)

    by magamiako1 ( 1026318 ) on Saturday May 29, 2021 @05:00PM (#61435110)
    All they literally did, quite literally, was search the network for all channels with "Libera" in the topic and took them over. They didn't do this because of spam. They searched the network for any channel that had libera in the topic and took it over. Through dubious claims that those channels and communities now belonged to Freenode as soon as the channel owners decided to either move or spin up an alternatively linked channel on Libera.

    For those that don't know, many channels these days have bots that link disparate communities together: Most commonly this is between Discord, Slack, and IRC. Some channels stood up an additional one on Libera. But because "Libera" was in the channel's topic, the Freenode admins stripped channel ownership and banned everyone.

    Why? Because their claim was "If you move to Libera, you've given up all rights to the channel namespace on Freenode--and it's now our property to take."

    The worst part? The channel I was in hadn't even completely moved to Libera. The expectation and thought was that many would move, but due to the channel being a larger channel with web presences that linked to Freenode, we would maintain it and support communications across the networks.I can definitely assure you, this action by the current Freenode administration sealed that deal. Seriously, his "apology" is such BS. The very first paragraph is bullshit.
    • This action also destroyed the python-fr channel. It had libera! in the topic and had for quite a long time. I don't think they even thought through the results of their bot just looking at the topic for a certain word and destroying the channel based on it. It was a lot of work to get the python channels moved over and because of freenode's behavior we also could not put it in the topic.

      Amazing example of shooting yourself in the foot. Others can learn from his example. Before this we had only discussed mo

    • Because their claim was "If you move to Libera, you've given up all rights to the channel namespace on Freenode--and it's now our property to take."

      To be fair, there was some basis for this. The Freenode policies required that the primary channel for a registered project remain open to maintain the registration. There was no rule against mentioning Libera—other than the restriction on advertising, which IMHO doesn't really apply to topical notices regarding project management such as a change in servers—but many of the projects were not only changing their topics but also arranging to block users from joining, which (in the primary channel)

      • by xmath ( 90486 )

        That policy requirement did not exist until Andrew Lee added it no more than 2 hours before deploying his channel hijacking bot.

        In fact the freenode policies (especially the group registration policy) make it quite clear that primary channels are reserved for use by projects:
        "Primary channels are reserved based on a formal or informal claim, external to IRC, to a specific project group, or trademarked name."
        "Primary channels do not expire with inactivity, though they can be claimed at any time by a represen

        • The language about the primary channel remaining open is indeed new as of May 25th. Before that there was only the statement on the Group Registration page (dating back at least a year) that "By registering your group, you are indicating that you are maintaining an official presence on the network." One could reasonably read that to indicate that by closing the channel and moving discussion off Freenode the prior operators were failing to maintain an official presence, and thus forfeiting their group regist

  • Fuck new freenode. Asshat in charge gets what he deserves. Long live libera.
  • by The Evil Atheist ( 2484676 ) on Sunday May 30, 2021 @03:26AM (#61436008)
    It's already a non-apology because you "apologized" only when it didn't turn out well for you. An apology to try to stem the tide of bad PR is not an apology. Then the non-apology says "may have caused", which is more of that corporate weasel word non-apology.

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