Stripe is On a Hiring Spree. But It's Also Rescinding Job Offers and Angering Engineers. (protocol.com) 102
The prevailing narrative about tech workers assumes that they have more power than ever before. This even has a term -- the Great Resignation. But at the booming, much-revered payments company Stripe, some applicants have found themselves accepting job offers only to learn they have been rescinded without warning. From a report: Protocol spoke with two Stripe candidates who received either verbal or written offers from the company and then had those offers revoked because of "shifting business priorities." (We reviewed their communications with Stripe recruiters, including the offer letter, to confirm the candidates' stories). Protocol also spoke with a former Stripe recruiter who described the company as embracing a "hire and fire" mentality and constantly shifting priorities and reorganizing staff. All three of these sources were granted anonymity for fear of repercussions by their current and potential future employers. Protocol also reviewed multiple online complaints detailing similar rescinded offers; the most prominent of these complaints was posted on Hacker News and received a rousing defense of Stripe from Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong.
"We want everyone who interacts with Stripe during a recruiting process to be treated professionally and with respect. We value feedback and are always looking for ways to improve our recruiting experience," a Stripe spokesperson wrote to Protocol. Stripe, which has the highest valuation of any private, venture-backed tech company in the U.S., has grown so rapidly over the last few years that many engineers and other tech workers see it as one of the most desirable, successful places to work. The former recruiter interviewed by Protocol said that she chose the job over offers at Google and two other tech companies, in part because of the extremely positive and enthusiastic way the company was sold to her and because of Stripe's reputation in the industry.
"We want everyone who interacts with Stripe during a recruiting process to be treated professionally and with respect. We value feedback and are always looking for ways to improve our recruiting experience," a Stripe spokesperson wrote to Protocol. Stripe, which has the highest valuation of any private, venture-backed tech company in the U.S., has grown so rapidly over the last few years that many engineers and other tech workers see it as one of the most desirable, successful places to work. The former recruiter interviewed by Protocol said that she chose the job over offers at Google and two other tech companies, in part because of the extremely positive and enthusiastic way the company was sold to her and because of Stripe's reputation in the industry.
Short Sighted (Score:4, Insightful)
I can see logically why they might want to do this, but it seems extremely short-sighted as either fewer pole willl be looking for jobs there henceforth, or possibly someone might continue looking even after getting an acceptance message from Stripe...
I wonder how Stripe would feel about candidates who had accepted a job offer reversing that because before they actually started they found a better position. Seems like they are now in no position to complain if that happens.
Re:Short Sighted (Score:5, Informative)
And there are plenty countries where this is illegal. A job offer being tendered can not be retracted by the offering party unless for damn good reasons.
"Change of plans" is not a reason.
"Applicant is a murdered" however is.
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"Applicant is a murdered" however is.
Well...yeah...if they were murdered, that would mean they would be dead, and generally, a company isn't expected to employ the dead...
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Ah. But think of the tax breaks you could get and tax sheltering you could do if you did actually employ the dead. If it's not already being done somewhere, then someone's gonna do it pretty soon.
The average Active Directory setup in a medium sized business has at least a dozen or so lingering accounts that someone forgot to term 6-12 years ago. The larger the business, the more zombie accounts that are probably still sitting around.
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Re: Short Sighted (Score:4, Interesting)
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think of the tax breaks you could get and tax sheltering you could do if you did actually employ the dead
Especially if they were registered as Democrats!
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Is that true? Trump led me to believe that dead people were being employed by all manner of Dem campaigns to overthrow America.
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fewer pole willl be looking for jobs there
But the Swedes are lined up out the door.
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https://www.businessinsider.co... [businessinsider.com]
Overall, business/employee relations seem to be growing ever-more transactional and less commit
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For people who accept but don't show, I would put them on a black list within the company. If they ever reapply, they don't even get considered.
I would also talk with others in the field and let them know.
And before anyone starts jumping up and down and screaming, "That's illegal!", no, it's not. This would be no different than casinos who pass around information about people who've stolen from them, possible card counters (which in itself isn't illegal but since it's private property they set the rules),
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This would be no different than casinos who pass around information about people who've stolen from them, possible card counters (which in itself isn't illegal but since it's private property they set the rules), and so on
Of course, casinos banning card counters really should have always been illegal. The term "card counter" is a bit tricky here. I'm using to mean someone who is good at keeping track of what cards have been played and calculating the odds of what could be played next, what is in other players hands, etc. based on the same information that everyone else has (plus potentially private information about their own hand, but not any other players depending on the game). Other tricks like groups operating as a team
Re: Short Sighted (Score:2)
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But they also have ways of offsetting the card counters by multiple decks (6 or 8) and leaving ample room at the end (about 1.5 deck for 6 deck or 2 decks for 8 deck) that won't be played because there'll be a shuffle by then.
Thus removing the "flaw" in the game. If we're defining flaw as a talented player having a significant advantage.
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Overall, business/employee relations seem to be growing ever-more transactional and less committed. The consensus is that businesses are to blame. But with the shoe on the other foot for the moment, would-be employees are happy to inflict some payback.
The thing is, the better qualified and the more competent an employee is, the more of that they can do. At the same time, IT is getting more difficult to get right due to numerous pressures rising and things are ever getting more complex. Hence losing the people that really get it is a pretty stupid move.
For example, I now see a 5 people team failing at stuff I did alone for a customer before (and not at 100%). Thing is this is an internal team now that barely grasps what they are doing. That cannot go well
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I can see logically why they might want to do this, but it seems extremely short-sighted as either fewer pole willl be looking for jobs there henceforth, or possibly someone might continue looking even after getting an acceptance message from Stripe...
Possibly someone might continue to look?
If you were desperate enough to take a job with them, at least open your eyes and realize that shade of carpet you're standing on is called "Quicksand."
Oh, and those who wish to remain anonymous, current and future employer blah blah? Fuck that and stand up. It's not like the (almost) employee was looking to fuck Stripe here. It was the other way around. You should not be the one hiding here.
Can't see it (Score:1)
Possibly someone might continue to look?
I wouldn't do it and wouldn't respect anyone that did.
It's just very sleazy to me to tell a company you are committing to work with them which they will start to expend resources to prepare for - all the whole you keep looking.
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If you're accepted into a shady company, it's reasonable to keep looking until you get your first paycheck. I think the main surprise here is nobody thought Stripe is that kind of company. Reminds me of what happened with Zynga.
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Possibly someone might continue to look?
I wouldn't do it and wouldn't respect anyone that did.
It's just very sleazy to me to tell a company you are committing to work with them which they will start to expend resources to prepare for - all the whole you keep looking.
We hear people say all the time keep your resume up to date. You may not be looking for a job, but let's be honest; if your resume is online, you're basically always fishing for one. And given how corporations are allowed to treat you at the end of the day (right to work laws), a lot of people consider that wise advise, not a form of disrespect for even a new employer. Remember this is a business, not a friend-factory. They have no problem grabbing the FNG by the RIF and tossing them out the door on Chr
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Was at one place where the CEO was essentially micromanaging everything. One monday we had three new hires who were told that they were now in professional services instead of development. All three quit that day and the CEO seemed baffled by that.
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I wonder how Stripe would feel about candidates who had accepted a job offer reversing that because before they actually started they found a better position.
What do you mean "would"? You don't do that?
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If you have my handshake, I work for you. Until that very moment, everything's up for discussion.
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I can see logically why they might want to do this, but it seems extremely short-sighted as either fewer pole willl be looking for jobs there henceforth, or possibly someone might continue looking even after getting an acceptance message from Stripe...
Indeed. They now have a reputation as a place you do not want to work at. As such, they will lose access to the highly competent and the mediocre will also think twice before applying. As the pressure from attacks, regulation, data protection, etc. is rising, that may ultimately doom them. Stupid.
Never heard of them (Score:5, Insightful)
"grown so rapidly over the last few years that many engineers and other tech workers see it as one of the most desirable, successful places to work."
Yeah? Never heard of this company until now and first impressions are the most lasting.
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In all fairness I doubt many people ask about the swiping mechanism when swiping their card. And on my credit card bill, I don't see "stripe", I see the vendor's name.
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You can pay for food with a phone? What next, flying cars?
(seriously though, I laughed when I first saw this, because lunch trucks were permanently stuck in my mind as "roach coaches" and something no self respecting hipster would visit, much less lunch trucks being run by hipsters.)
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What you're describing sounds a lot more like Square than Stripe. Stripe does offer some POS systems these days, but they aren't nearly as ubiquitous as Square's in my experience (as in, I've never seen a Stripe one in the wild, but I've seen dozens and dozens of Square POS).
Regardless, Stripe is fairly ubiquitous in online shopping. It's managed to steal a load of PayPal's thunder over the last several years. I'd guess that probably half the e-commerce sites I visit use Stripe under the hood (I have uMatri
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Most food trucks use Square, not Stripe, since Square's business model is about connecting to iPhones/iPads/etc...
Stripe tends to focus on online stores.
Check out this comparison: https://www.forbes.com/advisor... [forbes.com]
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"grown so rapidly over the last few years that many engineers and other tech workers see it as one of the most desirable, successful places to work."
Yeah? Never heard of this company until now and first impressions are the most lasting.
Me either. I give them 2 years before they implode.
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From the Wikipedia page [wikipedia.org]:
Stripe is an Irish-American financial services and software as a service company dual-headquartered in San Francisco, United States and Dublin, Ireland.
For the purpose of income tax, can I select which location I'd like to be paid from?
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Does this company actually produce anything?
Re:Never heard of them (Score:5, Funny)
Why, when has this become important again?
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Stripe, the relatively "new" kid on the block, handles approximately 15% of the global ecommerce transaction market share. PayPal plus its various subsidiaries, for comparison, accounts for about 34% according to a few Google searches.
You've probably already used Stripe to purchase stuff without realizing it. Stripe has a lot of really nice features such as the ability for the merchant to never touch the credit card - that is, the card information is never sent to the merchant's web server. The card numb
I dropped Paypal for Stripe Invoicing (Score:2)
Paypal was dropping too many of my customer's payments, with a meaningless error message. I tollerated that for a while, but then I went for stripe which seems to work fine, even if their invoicing system is a bit too Ajaxy and is too focused on customers rather than invoices.
Stripe does provide excellent support, unlike Paypal.
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Yeah? Never heard of this company until now and first impressions are the most lasting.
You might not have heard about them yet I'm sure you use their services indirectly all the time. Many important companies are like that.
Most likely the great times to join Stripe are over. They pay well but you won't become a millionaire.
Employee Loyalty? (Score:3)
Is this one where they'll demand employee loyalty like a 3-piece IBM'er and then just kick them to the curb on a whim?
If so just hire contractors and be done with it. Even an H1B has more security than an employee at some of these places.
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Sounds like they are just incredibly disorganized.
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From what I've heard most organically grown Silly Valley startups can't execute to save their lives.
This is kind of half true. When they are small, they can usually execute nicely. It's only when they scale up and the MBAs start to get involved, who have no respect for the people actually doing the work, that the execution drops off a cliff. I've seen it happen over and over.
Reneging offers. (Score:5, Insightful)
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A signed written offer seems to have more of a legal basis. I wonder what the California employment law says about this? Would you get to keep the sign on bonus plus one pay cycle? Any CA employment lawyers here with an opinion?
Re: Reneging offers. (Score:3)
As someone who moves to new jobs, I'd seriously consider a lawsuit if this happened after I break an apartment lease and move.
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BS (Score:2)
CA is an at-will state. Either party can give no notice and terminate.
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Yes, they can fire you on day 1, but cannot ask for the sign-on bonus or moving costs back unless you're fired for cause (which they can prove).
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I'd never take a verbal offer as a real offer, I would always want the job offer in writing.
How does that help if you live in an at-will state?
If you can be fired for any reason with no advance notice, then at the very least they are entitled to fire you on the spot as soon as you come in to work on your first day.
Or did I misunderstand this? US labor laws are a bit hard to grasp for non-americans...
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Yes, they can fire you at the door, but sign-on bonus and any relocation is yours to keep, unless they can prove cause to fire you.
Re: Reneging offers. (Score:2)
what does Stripe management think of the actual employees?
What do their actual employees think about Stripe management?
If I found out my company was doing this, I'd immediately be looking for a job.
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When I was retiring from the military, I had a job offer from a gov. contractor, in writing. Accepted the offer and, on the day I was supposed to start, I contacted HR to get the onboarding paperwork. HR responded, saying they didn't have it ready. Then they contacted me to say that the offer had been rescinded. No notice prior to start date, nothing.
Needless to say, I told everyone I could to avoid applying at the company.
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I'd have also filed a small claims against them for 1 days pay.
The logical conclusion (Score:2)
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Sooo,
1. Buy put options for your employer
2. Convince whole IT security team to quit with you
3. Tip off hackers
4. Profit!
Oversubscribing works (Score:4, Interesting)
As long as people get away with it, oversubscribing resources is free money.
Now stop talking about it and let them get away with it.
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Well, it depends. If you get a written job offer and you make life plans based on that (which could be a reasonable thing to do), it's really crappy if the job offer is rescinded.
In the past, before remote working was really a thing, people would sometimes move to a different city, state or country on the strength of a written job offer.
That said, although rescinding a job offer is shitty, there's nothing you can do other than publicize it and get people to avoid Stripe.
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This works in exact opposite direction. If you get a written application for an open job that requires significant investment in things like tooling to get that employee productive, it's really crappy if that employee decides not to take the job after you invested.
So? There was no agreement, and you don't get to force employee to cover costs of tooling, or force him to show up and do the job until suitable replacement is found.
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If you're in a well-run organization you're buying the tooling for the position, not the specific person, so no, your argument holds no water at all.
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By your definition, there's almost no small business anywhere on the planet that is a "well run organisation". In fact, this sort of a large megacorporation favouritism where workers are fully interchangeable legos at best being defined as a "well-run organisation" simply by virtue of size enabling full interchangeability of staff... is frankly fucked up.
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By your definition, there's almost no small business anywhere on the planet that is a "well run organisation".
I'm trying to think of a typical small business where the tooling and equipment you'd acquire for the #1 candidate for a job couldn't just as easily be used by the #2 candidate for the job if the #1 backs out, and I really can't. A restaurant hiring for a chef will essentially use the same equipment whether Chef Joe or Chef Jane takes the position. In a boutique software house, the same computer should work just as fine for Jill or Jack... and the software stack should be the same. In a small accounting
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It's difficult to describe the US as a whole. So much depends on each state and sometimes each industry. A union job is regulated differently from a non-union hourly job. And a salary job is regulated differently still. What kind of contracts that are recognized between employer and employee are recognized differ famously between states such as non-compete clauses.
Termination varies as well, with "at-will" states often under no obligation to provide severance or minimum warning, tech companies in California
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I did not ask for terms of general termination. I asked if there's a trial period for workers at the start of the employment, during which either party can terminate the relationship for basically any reason.
General terms of termination typically come into play AFTER the trial period is over, and are specifically designed to be significantly more onerous on both parties because at that point, duration of employer-employee relationship builds inherent mutual trust in at least some continuity in said relation
Re: Confusing (Score:2)
It is however fairly common to have something like a 90 day period where they will fire you for any minor little thing. Especially for jobs that start out as temp positions.
I've also more than once seen people quit after or even during day one when they decide the job isn't what they expected.
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Thanks, that's the approximate number I was looking for. This means that it's not unusual to just get terminated the first day at work, or quit first day of work.
This was before they had even one day at work. And yet, there are complaints. I just don't understand. The only explanation I could think of was if in US, or at least in the specific state they're talking about there was some kind of blanket rule on no trial period at all, and work contracts being binding even if they're not signed yet. I know for
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Thanks, that's the approximate number I was looking for. This means that it's not unusual to just get terminated the first day at work, or quit first day of work.
It depends on the industry: In what we call "McJobs" - fast food jobs; or industries that rely on a degree of automation, and people are just cogs - yeah, leaving after or being fired after one day may happen, but it's not a "regular" thing. Workers are less individualistic in these roles, so one employee is just about as good as another. If you have a steady supply of applicants, you don't care as much about losing a current employee.
In "white collar" jobs - what we'd call "professional" jobs - lastin
Re: Confusing (Score:2)
In most states, yes, there's a "trial period". And the length of that "trial period" is however long you work there. Either party can terminate at any time for any reason, now or anytime in the future. This is called "at-will" employment, and it holds for all but 8 of the 50 states. Of the 8, New York is the notable one with a large population. The vast majority of Americans work under at-will environments.
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Rescinded job offers means rescinded jobs. The company offered a job, and after the candidate accepted (which is signing a contract), the job offer gets withdrawn. Usually by accepting a job offer you need to decline other job offers and quit your current job. This costs exactly the same as a rescinded jobs, and is extremely disruptive. Declining a job offer is normal, rescinding an offer (as is accepting an offer but rescinding the acceptance) should be considered unethical.
There's no legal protection in U
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For those who ever doubt that far leftists are genocidal torturers and slavers, here's a citation for you, posted freely of his own volition.
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First of all, there are legal protections. In many countries, it's a breach of contract. Only in certain states in the US this thing is perfectly legal; in places where it isn't, some companies do it anyway because they think they wouldn't get sued.
There are good economic reasons to this. When contracts carry no weight and therefore people should have no faith in them, it's much more difficult to seal a deal, and increases the overall costs of making a deal, as both sides need to compensate for risks they h
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Only in certain states in the US this thing is perfectly legal; in places where it isn't, some companies do it anyway because they think they wouldn't get sued.
I browsed around a little bit and it seems to be legal in most of the USA in general, except Montana, unless you give the impression that you are offering labor on a contract basis instead of at will. So if your offer letter includes any mention of at-will employment then it can probably be rescinded any time for any reason not explicitly protected by law (like a disability that doesn't interfere with one's ability to execute one's job duties.)
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This is legal globally. This is not about contractual obligations, because no contract exists. This is about rescinding offers made before contract has been signed.
Which again, is legal globally. Everywhere. I know of not a single nation that would prevent this. The only possible exception is illegal discrimination in the region, i.e. telling someone in UK that offer is rescinded because that person is ethnically Romanian. Rescinding an offer for pretty much any other reason is legal, including giving no re
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I don't know why you would say things like "offer was accepted but not contract was signed" in another comment and then mention just "offers" without saying acceptance when you try to lecture me on it. Also I'm puzzled why you would mention "counter-offer", as if it's related. I mean what happens after you "counter-offer"? Eventually you have to "accept" it right? In this case, it's alleged Stripe rescinded offers after the candidates accepted them, so I don't there should be any ambiguity as to what we're
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So, since you're obviously trying to gaslight, but I'm a bit insomniac right now, I decided to click your links to see how much you're gaslighting.
>Once someone has accepted an ‘unconditional’ job offer
Oh look, your gaslighting it total in nature.
But let's look at the first link as well.
>As an employment lawyer, I consider employment contracts to be similar to marriage pre-nup agreements
Ain't that cute. He as lawyer for specific kind of cases who's looking for new clients "considers them s
dick move (Score:2)
This is a super dick move. I am stunned that they don't get sued for making an offer and then rescinding it. What if you quit your job after you got your offer and now your unemployed?!?
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Stripe is a California company. They can get away with a lot here. But most of these companies are very unaware of the finer details of California law. Their HR teams aren't lawyers, but they feel their few years of experience in the job makes them experts in employment law. There are a bunch of gotchas that someone motivated enough to dig through the state's employment code and labor laws.
I haven't checked many years, but it used to be the case that termination required a payment the same day. If they didn
Re: dick move (Score:2)
Every startup I've worked for in CA had to be told by employees how OT works in CA. Lots of times this is because HR is working by federal law, which apply throughout much of the country, but aren't nearly as strict as CA labor law.
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I haven't checked many years, but it used to be the case that termination required a payment the same day.
That appears to still be the case. And if you quit then they have to pay you within 72 hours.
Early Termination Clause in Offer Letter (Score:2)
What applicants should demand is an early termination clause by Stripe if they act in bad faith and rescind the offer prior to the agreed upon starting date and to three months post hiring date. I would say a year salary is appropriate in the first case and 3 months in the second (that is a typical evaluation periodâ¦adjust accordingly). The latter protects the employee post hire because we know that they could terminate during that evaluation period and use Right-to-hire laws as justification f
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Why would Stripe succumb to this demand? They appear to have plenty of applicants if they are rescinding offers. For them, for now, it is a buyers market. They dictate terms.
Asking for some sort of upfront payment, a hiring bonus payable upon acceptance of offer, is something less ambitious that you might swing, if the size was not outrageous. But if they want to maintain their zero added cost rescission policy they will just say no and move on to the next candidate.
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If as you suggest they have way more qualified applicants than positions, then they should not be paying any sign-on bonus, any relocation, any work-from-home costs, etc. The market value of each employee is also less and less as more qualified substitutes become available, so expect your salary to drop every month, every year, or whatever adjustment period.
Note that all of the above is based on the assumption that they have a large surplus of qualified applicants, which I sincerely doubt in today's market,
My advice (Score:2)
My advice. Hire good people that can adapt to constantly shifting priorities and technologies. If you think ever project is going to be lead by a team of rock star engineers that are the top experts in their field, great good luck there. If you think you can do that and change your mind about what you're making every quarter. Something has to give or your company will fail.
Age discrimination in tech (Score:1)
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Ah. So "we only hire inexperienced people"? Explains some of the problems they have.
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Happening to me. I've had several verbal offers. They should have had my resume. However, they asked for it again. That's the last I hear from them. If I ask they say they went forward with someone else. In one case we had done the immigration paperwork, onboarding for mid-December. Next thing I know - poof! Two sentence - you're not hired, get lost note.
That's also how I lost my last job. Young manager came in and said I was there too long. Too old. I went from stellar annual reviews and increase in pay to
Bad faith? (Score:1)
Reputations matter (Score:2)
When recruiting staff your reputation as an employer matters. If you treat staff with disrespect, especially those with in-demand skills your business will suffer.
regular occurrence, or rarity now more visible? (Score:2)
I can say that at the time