Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Python Programming

Is Python About to Get Faster? (zdnet.com) 134

Posted by EditorDavid from the Python-performance dept.
"Python 3.11 will bear the fruits of CPython's multi-year effort to make Python a faster programming language," reports ZDNet.

"Core Python (CPython) developer Mark Shannon shared details about the project to make Python faster at the PyCon 2022 conference this week..." Last year, Microsoft funded a project for the Python Software Foundation (PSF), led by Python creator Guido van Rossum and Shannon, to make Python twice as fast as the current stable 3.10 series. The vision is to nudge Python towards the performance of C. Microsoft hired van Rossum in 2020 and gave him a free hand to pick any project. At last year's PyCon 2021 conference, he said he "chose to go back to my roots" and would work on Python's famed lack of performance....

The Faster CPython Project provided some updates about CPython 3.11 performance over the past year. Ahead of PyCon 2022, the project published more results comparing the 3.11 beta preview to 3.10 on dozens of performance metrics, showing that 3.11 was overall 1.25 times faster than 3.10. Shannon is realistic about the project's ability to improve Python performance, but believes the improvements can extend Python's viable use to more virtual machines. "Python is widely acknowledged as slow. Whilst Python will never attain the performance of low-level languages like C, Fortran, or even Java, we would like it to be competitive with fast implementations of scripting languages, like V8 for Javascript or luajit for lua," he wrote last year in the Python Enhancement Proposal (PEP) 659.

"Specifically, we want to achieve these performance goals with CPython to benefit all users of Python including those unable to use PyPy or other alternative virtual machines...."

On the question of a just-in-time (JIT) compiler for Python's performance, Shannon suggested it was not a priority and would likely not arrive until Python 3.13, according to the Python Software Foundation's coverage of the event.... According to the Faster Python implementation plan, CPython 3.12 might gain a "simple JIT compiler for small regions" that compiles small regions of specialized code, while 3.13 would enhance the compiler to extend the regions for compilation.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Is Python About to Get Faster? More

Is Python About to Get Faster?

Comments Filter:

  • It couldn't get much slower (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Viol8 ( 599362 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @02:40AM (#62537962) Homepage

    From various benchmarks I've een it runs anywhere from 1/20th to 1/100th the speed of C/C++ depending on the task.

    • There is absolutely no point comparing it to a low-level language. CPython runs in C, so there is always overhead.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Viol8 ( 599362 )

        The problem is because of its extensive (and very good) systems library and all the other 3rd party libraries, its increasingly being used for tasks that require speed - eg servers and AI. And yes, most (all?) AI libraries are C++ at their core , but transfering datas from the C++ to the python level and python processing it at the high level all takes up CPU cycles.

        • Re:It couldn't get much slower (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Ambassador Kosh ( 18352 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @04:06AM (#62538102)

          For most things the transfer takes up very little time. The data is normally stored in numpy arrays and can be handed directly to C++ without conversion or even a copy needed. For AI libraries you are mostly designing the network and data loading but once training or inferencing starts you are mostly just running pure native code.

          My experience is that with Python you can get the design working first and then fix the algorithm issues and then hand off to high performance libraries for most of the heavy lifting and get something that gets close to the performance of a native solution at a fraction of the effort.

          • Re:It couldn't get much slower (Score:4, Insightful)

            by TechyImmigrant ( 175943 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @07:52AM (#62538438) Homepage Journal

            I do most of my algorithm development in python. Sometimes, when it matters I will re-write it in C or C++ when it's working, but often I rely on Python features like the built in large integer support and MPFR for high precision floats, so mapping to a compiled language is a problem and usually not needed. When I take an O(n^2) algorithm down to O(n.log(n)) or even O(n) with some neat algorithm trick, it usually computes fast enough in Python. Often I'm looking for an answer, not code that I'm going to run many times, so coding speed and convenience is the primary utility of the language.
             

            • I do most of my algorithm development in python. Sometimes, when it matters I will re-write it in C or C++ when it's working, but often I rely on Python features like the built in large integer support and MPFR for high precision floats, so mapping to a compiled language is a problem and usually not needed.

              There's a variety of C++ interfaces for MPFR and etc. They're all much of a muchness, really, they supply a C++ type with operator overloading so you just write your code as you'd expect and it works.

              • Re:It couldn't get much slower (Score:4, Interesting)

                by TechyImmigrant ( 175943 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @10:18AM (#62539062) Homepage Journal

                Yes. I've tried a few. MPFR in C++ is way simpler to use than in C where you don't have operator overloading.
                However with the dynamic typing of python I can inject MPFR numbers into existing code and it will be handled just fine.
                Similarly I needed to do matrix arithmetic in Galois extension fields (that numpy doesn't do). So I wrote a GF library and overloaded the four arithmetic operations. Then I wrote a basic matrix library and the GF elements just worked within the matrix library without the matrix library needing to know. Then I do my ECC (both the error correction and elliptic curve crypto variants) and matrix based crypto (like 2-EXT) in simple python expressions using the matrix library with the GF library. That is not so simple in C++ although it is doable, but the off-the-shelf libraries tend not to be handle that kind of thing.

                So it's the relative speed and ease of getting the code to run and work that usually matters to me. Once it's running, I'll get my output and I'm done. My 2-EXT code takes a few seconds to find all the matrices for a large order extractor and spit out the logic operations that I can put in hardware.

                I don't know why lots of people think Python is only used for ML and numpy. It's used for lots of things.

                I've been programming since the late 70s and I've used my share of languages. But Python is the one I fall back on when I need quick development. C is the one I fall back on when I need speed or I'm writing reference code for customers. I've tried the Javas and Rusts and Smalltalks and Haskells and occams and pilots and prologs and UTC&A and they don't really do that much for my type of work. That's not to say that Rust isn't good for large projects that need security and stability, or Haskell isn't good for maintaining functional consistency. Just use what works for you.

        • The transfer usually costs: exactly nothing
          It is just a pointer you pass to a C/C++ function.

          If you do not work with Python, then at lest have the dignity and stop spreading your misunderstandings.

      • There is absolutely no point comparing it to a low-level language.

        A language is a language. You use a language to create programs. In that sense they are comparable. Now there is no inherent speed in a language, they can all be theoretically translated and all the proper ones are Turing complete. But when every implementation of Python is fairly consistently slower than Java or C/C++ you have to wonder if the savings on programming effort is worth the overhead. Sometimes, probably, other times if a program is written once but ran a billion times the combined overhead beco

        • How is it hard to install on Windows? I use miniconda on Windows and Linux and the install process is basically identical and it is very rare to run into something that only works on one of them. All the commands are the same, the dev process is the same etc. I switch between Windows and Linux for Python development for decades now depending on what I am doing.

          • On Linux I type 'python'. ;o)

            On Windows it was recommended to install Chocolatey then use that to install Python. A bit of a cop out that we dealt with for a very long time. Another option is Anaconda and then later Miniconda because Anaconda was kind of a pain in the ass too.

            If you want to take a trip down memory lane. Grab the windows installer for Python 2.0.1 and try it. It sucked and what you ended up with wasn't a very practical installation of Python. Fast forward a decade and it was still not great.

            • I don't use the system Python on Linux. I find that makes things too hard when trying to make reproducible setups. With conda based systems I can quickly replicate the entire environment elsewhere. I can also clone the environment and make some changes and verify that all tests still pass.

              For Windows I have used Anaconda/Miniconda for a LONG time. It has high performance versions of numpy and other scientific libraries by default which is a huge gain over using pip.

              • Yes. My day job includes getting a flavor of conda pushed out to a cluster. At lot of this stuff took years to come around. I think people hate Python on its decades of bad practices rather than any single workflow you happen to use.

                I still consider the tools around Python to be immature. If they were better a big part of my day job would have been eliminated. This isn't your grandpa's FORTRAN, but also they don't make 'em like they used to.

            • On linux I still have to wrestle with updating to the latest version every six months or so. If you have 3.6 you need 3.9 which of course is not in the ditro's repo and it seems to get pretty messy

              • Use conda. Don't use the system python for anything. Think of the system python as the python needed by other stuff in the repos. If you upgrade it or install packages in it you can actually break your distro.

    • And for 99 uses out of 100, that is fast enough.

      • The difference between pure Python and C-based Python libraries has actually had a nice effect. This difference means that there is a strong motivation to produce C-based libraries that provide a nice high-level abstraction. For nearly every computationally-intensive task that one might commonly want to do, someone has created a C-based Python library with a simple interface.

        In C, if I need to do a one-off matrix multiply, it might be easier to inline the code than it is to try to set up a separate module

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Viol8 ( 599362 )

        And thats why datacentres are now using a significant percentage of world power generation with the accompanying emissions.

      • Code that works, will be used in companies. And initially it works well enough, so more and more people inside the company start to use this code.

        And that keeps growing until tit hits a certain scale. But now the use of that code is so entrenched in the companies business flow that you now suddenly need to do some serious hardware upgrading to the server this code runs on.

        A one time rewrite in a much faster language would have saved a lot of time, computing resources and hardware upgrades.

        TCO of software in

        • My approach is to first code in Python and make sure it works with a test suite. Then I profile and optimize with algorithms and using common high speed libraries. Then I optimize with more high speed libraries depending on what additional profiling shows up. If I do have to recode it in a low level language or just a part at that point at least I then have a well designed set of algorithms, tests, interfaces etc. which is a MUCH better target for a low level language. I find coding from scratch in a low le

          • "I find coding from scratch in a low level language is more likely to lead to project failure."

            Amen to that - it is simply your old Premature Optimisation writ large.

            I was coding in C++ until I came here to comment. I wish we had prototyped in Python.

    • Julia is wickedly fast out fo the box. Most of Julia is actually Julia under the hood! This isn't merely a boast but it enables the most essential feature of Julia which is that it can autorecompile on the fly for any new type long after the original library was written.

      Julia is not pythonic so pythonista's give it a lot of grief. When you first encounter it you may even think of it as a throwback. But it's not it's just a different mindset. Think of your initial gag when you kinda mocked python for it

      • I have looked at Julia a number of times now and while it is interesting it mostly seems like it needs time to mature. It mostly needs time to stabilize for the language and the ecosystem. When I looked at using it for a project it still seemed pretty difficult for multiprocessing due to the slow startup. There was work being done to be able to save the compilation so the workers could start up quickly but it seemed kind of hacky still.

        I also REALLY dislike 1-base indexing and Julia would be the only langua

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by HiThere ( 15173 )

      You obviously have a limited familiarity with languages. You should try some Smalltalk programming. (There are other languages that are worse, and there's an optimized version that I haven't looked at.)

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by hawk ( 1151 )

        I used smalltalk once for something that, by concept, was purely objects talking to one another.

        It was painfully slow on a fast machine for the time (an alpha).

        I did a line by line translation into fortran, using array references rather than an array of objects. No effort, *at all*, at optimizing.

        The speedup was 45,000:1

  • PyPy has existed for years (Score:5, Informative)

    by SQL Error ( 16383 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @03:07AM (#62537998)

    And averages 4.5x faster than CPython. [pypy.org]

    • Meanwhile it continues to lag behind CPython in terms of feature sets.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tepples ( 727027 )

      PyPy doesn't provide much speedup for the Python parts of a program if the program uses a C extension module that uses Python C API. Unless a module is ported to CFFI [pypy.org], PyPy loses a lot of time marshaling objects back and forth between Python and C environments in order to emulate the Python C API. My experience is with Pillow (the Python imaging library) in a program that needed to make a bunch of calls to PIL.Image.Image.crop() and PIL.ImageStat.sum2() to determine which of four candidate images had the lo

      • Sure, there are cases where Pypy doesn't run faster. However the beauty of Pypy (in my opinion) is that it requires zero modification to your code: you simply run it with Pypy instead of CPython. So you can always simply try, just to see if it runs faster, and you can do that at various stages of your development.

  • Stop talking bullshit, editors. Seriously.

    Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia, which you could have checked in about 30 seconds:
    "CPython is the reference implementation of the Python programming language. Written in C and Python, CPython is the default and most widely used implementation of the Python language."

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Viol8 ( 599362 )

      Hey, this is Slashdot, editorial inaccuracy is part of its anarchic charm! :)

  • Think of the way int/float/boolean are handled as objects, allocated and reference-counted for each simple statement. Ints alone are just worse because of their infinite length. This takes an awful lot of time. Some data flow analysis could spare a lot of this useless handlng.

    • This is also why high performance code uses numpy. You don't reference count very item in a numpy array (unless it is an array of objects).

    • Think of the way int/float/boolean are handled as objects, allocated and reference-counted for each simple statement. Ints alone are just worse because of their infinite length. This takes an awful lot of time. Some data flow analysis could spare a lot of this useless handlng.

      When I need to use huge integers or exact rationals, python is perfect. It supports them natively. So instead of Googling for some C bigint library and trying to get it to compile, then learning it's call structure, I just use python and the code is written in a couple of minutes. Those calculations may be slow in computer terms but if it takes less than a second to compute the result, it's fine for getting the result and all the time is in the development.

      • Most languages support both natively and easily. In Haskel, Integer is the type for a bignum integer, and Int for a machine integer and both can be used as easily as the other.

        • Most languages support both natively and easily. In Haskel, Integer is the type for a bignum integer, and Int for a machine integer and both can be used as easily as the other.

          Haskell is all fun and games until you want to change some state.

          • Changing state is very easy in Haskell, but that's hardy the issue of that a language can have native support for both machine-level integers and bignums. Indeed it's not quite clear what “native support” would even mean in Haskell but it being part of the standard library. Even booleans in Haskell are simply defined as any other constants in a library.

            Rust aso does not native supply bignums, but the interfaces to them are no different than arithmetic on any other type.

            • Haskell doesn't map to my problem domains very well.
              Rust was a bit of a bear to use when I tried it with long compile times for small programs and doesn't supply features I need with the immediacy of Python.

              If I wrote large, security critical SW, Rust might be my go-to. But I don't. I create security critical hardware (system verilog mostly, but I sneak in code generators like confluence and myhdl when no one is looking) and the software I write it usually is in aid of the design process, manufacturing test

  • And no, Numpy isn't a universal solution, there's many use cases you can't do with their arrays that I've hit several times.

    16 bytes: a=None
    28 bytes: a=3
    49 bytes: a=""
    56 bytes: a=[]
    64 bytes: a=[1]
    64 bytes: a={}
    232 bytes: a={1:1}

    • >And no, Numpy isn't a universal solution

      True dat. Try to use numpy for matrix operations with elements in Galois fields. It ain't happening.

  • Development time versus execution speed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by WierdUncle ( 6807634 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @06:39AM (#62538294)

    The strength of a language like Python is getting code that works, in a reasonable timescale. Benchmark execution speed is probably irrelevant in many cases. I would have been wasting my time to code one of my recent in-house applications in C++ rather than Python, because the Python code was fast enough, and there is every indication that it will scale well.

    With other dynamically typed languages I use, such as GNU Octave and Ngspice, execution speed close to C code can be achieved, because the data is vectorised. For example, a few statements can set up a loop over thousands of items, in which case, most of the overheads of dynamic type checking and garbage collection disappear. Of course, that depends on having libraries or modules whose core functions are implemented in an efficient way, and then interfaced to the dynamic language.

    • The strength of a language like Python is getting code that works, in a reasonable timescale.

      And that's the problem: people use for rapid development of a proof of concept - and the Python proof of concept ends up in production.

      • Why is that a problem? A lot of production stuff is just fine in python despite not being as fast as a lower level language. If speed was truly the ultimate goal then you were stupid to begin coding in Python to begin with. Not a fault of the language but rather of the person leading the project.

        • Why is that a problem? A lot of production stuff is just fine in python despite not being as fast as a lower level language. If speed was truly the ultimate goal then you were stupid to begin coding in Python to begin with. Not a fault of the language but rather of the person leading the project.

          My concern with Python is not the runtime performance, but the management after it's been in production for 5 years. Here's the problem: that prototype, if successful, almost never gets rewritten in a production-grade language. You can blame whomever you want and you're right, someone was an idiot along the way, but I've inherited many python apps that are nightmares to maintain in production.

          My other problem with this is that Python IS NOT FASTER TO WRITE CODE IN. There are many languages that are j

      • Most of the time that is not a problem at all.
        As you run the python scrip only once or twice on huge data sets, and then you archive the result.

        You Python haters simply have no clue which people use Python why.

        If I need a scientific result tomorrow, I have no time for you writing a perfect C++ version that is finished programming in 4 weeks, and only has the benefit that it is 10 times faster on your machine.

        What counts is: I have the result tomorrow.

      • the Python proof of concept ends up in production.

        In my case, "production" is just an application that I run to take some drudgery out of my job, and as long as that works, Python is the right tool for the job.

        I think what you are talking about is the kind of bad management that says "It works, so we ship it". Developers are not provided the budget for turning a prototype into a sound production design. Instead, money is squandered fixing the shortcomings of the unfinished product, your company gets a reputation for shipping unreliable tat, and so on. I am

    • I'll just add that having source code and object code in the same place also has benefits for home-grown stuff. Finding a binary called "doit" which does most of what you need, but then not being able to find the source for it isn't a pleasant day.

      Like Perl, Python the (probably vast majority of) programs often don't really care about execution speed. However, for Python to become the One True Language, it needs to do a lot better in web server apps and the like. I have no idea what sorts of things the pyth

      • Like Perl, Python the (probably vast majority of) programs often don't really care about execution speed.

        Unlike Python, Perl is reasonably performant. It's usually 4x faster than Python... or more.

        • Unlike Python, Perl is reasonably performant. It's usually 4x faster than Python... or more.

          Perl was the first modern scripting language I learned, when we converted all our business stuff to Linux. I was highly impressed with its handling of regexes, which I had not come across before with my code in BASIC running on DOS. However, I eventually found that my terse Perl scripts for munching text data tended to become incomprehensible gibberish, when I wanted to work on them later. There are just too many ways to do things in Perl, and you are never entirely sure what the interpreter will do when pr

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by paulpach ( 798828 )

          Unlike Python, Perl is reasonably performant. It's usually 4x faster than Python... or more.

          Perl is a write-only language.
          Perl is a dead language with less than 1% market share [statisticstimes.com].
          The war between Perl and Python is over and Python is the clear winner.

          If performance is important to you, you are better off using Julia, which has much better performance than Perl and python, it is very expressive, and it has a bigger market share than Perl at this point.

  • Crooked (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Vlijmen Fileer ( 120268 )

    It's a horribly crooked language.

    Rather than trying to mind the horrible mess, would it not be better to just abandon it?

    • Lots of people seem to like it, so there is a market for it. Me, I've never got to warm up to python. Its way and my thinking are just not compatible.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Abandon it for what though?

      There's C# and .NET Core, I bet you love those.

      • Abandon it for what though?

        There's C# and .NET Core, I bet you love those.

        I'm personally a JVM guy, so Kotlin and scala come to mind if you don't like Java. Groovy was great, but the industry seems to have moved on from it.

        However, there's Go, Dart, Swift, many others....and honestly, while I haven't worked in C# much and avoid MS products, it does seem like a pretty good language and most people I know who gave it an open minded try said it was great. I've seen greater success in C# shops than any Python shop I've ever heard of.

    • Dude, that's so cruel. Think of the abandonment trauma, the loneliness.

      Better to give it an overdose of sleeping pills.

  • Surely you mean less slow? (Score:3)

    by OneHundredAndTen ( 1523865 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @07:32AM (#62538390)
    'Faster' does not describe anything Python might do properly - 'less slowly' would do so.

  • Especially after a meal (Score:5, Funny)

    by Laxator2 ( 973549 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @07:43AM (#62538420)

    Pythons can spend about 3 weeks digesting a meal. During this time they are extremely slow, in fact they are not moving at all.
    On the other hand, Python gives the programmers quite a bit of freedom on how to attempt to solve a problem, so Python programmers do not feel constricted.

  • Misguided (Score:4, Insightful)

    by brickhouse98 ( 4677765 ) on Monday May 16, 2022 @07:55AM (#62538452)
    Lot of commenters appear misguided- this is welcome (as any speed increase would be.) And for those who say "it's just too slow" then you're clearly using it for the wrong purpose. Not everything needs to be speedy. If you can quickly create your project in python and it's fast enough or just need any of the packages in the huge library, python is invaluable. If true speed is the main/only goal then sure, go to a lower level language like C or Rust or even a middle ground like Go.

  • Do whatever, but don't fuck off compatibility like the whole Python 2.7 to 3.0 thing. My God did that suck. Yes it was mostly print statements, but jeeze it caused 2.7 to stick around forever.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Junta ( 36770 )

      Oh, it went much deeper than print statements. Print statements were perhaps the tamest of all the changes.

      The most widespread impact was the whole string/bytes junk, where they made unicode the new str, without recogizing the old type name (unicode) but at least catering to the prefix (u). More frustrating is that some libraries decided to require str and others bytes that formerly worked together. Sometimes in odd ways. For example, base64decode requires the input be binary 'bytes', despite the whole poi

  • GIL (Score:2)

    by oren ( 78897 )
    1.25x faster is nice, I guess. In the meanwhile I'm giving up on 28x performance on my server because of the GIL. And no, not every code can be simply split to 28 independent processes (as opposed to 28 threads with shared memory). IMVHO their priorities are wrong.

Slashdot Top Deals

news: gotcha

Close