Is 'CS In Every School' the 2024 Presidential Campaign's 'Chicken In Every Pot'? (msn.com) 104
Long-time Slashdot reader theodp writes:
During the U.S. presidential campaign of 1928, a circular published by the Republican Party claimed that if Herbert Hoover won there would be "a chicken in every pot". Times change. When talk turned to education at Wednesday night's 2024 Republican U.S. Presidential Candidate Debate, candidate Asa Hutchinson promised there will be 'CS in every school' if he wins (YouTube).
"Look at Arkansas," the former Arkansas Governor explained. "We have to compete with China. I built computer science education. We led the nation in Computer Science education, going from 1,100 students to 23,000 students taking it. This is how you compete with China. As President of the United States, I will make sure we go from 51% of our schools offering computer science to every school in rural areas and urban areas offering computer science for the benefit of our kids and we can compete with China in terms of technology."
In his last year in office, Hutchinson served as Chair of the National Governors Association (NGA) and rallied the nation's Governors around tech CEOs' demands for more K-12 CS education to culminate his year-long CS evangelism initiative, which the NGA noted enjoyed the support of Amazon, Google, and Microsoft. Hutchinson's pitch to the Governors included a video challenging them with a question. "Will it be American students who learn to code," Hutchinson asked, "or will industry be required to go overseas to find the talent that we need here in the United States of America?"
Later in the debate former New Jersey governor Chris Christie said entrepreneur/candidate Vivek Ramaswamy "sounds like ChatGPT."
"Look at Arkansas," the former Arkansas Governor explained. "We have to compete with China. I built computer science education. We led the nation in Computer Science education, going from 1,100 students to 23,000 students taking it. This is how you compete with China. As President of the United States, I will make sure we go from 51% of our schools offering computer science to every school in rural areas and urban areas offering computer science for the benefit of our kids and we can compete with China in terms of technology."
In his last year in office, Hutchinson served as Chair of the National Governors Association (NGA) and rallied the nation's Governors around tech CEOs' demands for more K-12 CS education to culminate his year-long CS evangelism initiative, which the NGA noted enjoyed the support of Amazon, Google, and Microsoft. Hutchinson's pitch to the Governors included a video challenging them with a question. "Will it be American students who learn to code," Hutchinson asked, "or will industry be required to go overseas to find the talent that we need here in the United States of America?"
Later in the debate former New Jersey governor Chris Christie said entrepreneur/candidate Vivek Ramaswamy "sounds like ChatGPT."
You mean just as dishonest? (Score:5, Insightful)
I do not actually know whether those chickens materialized. Probably not. CS for everybody is just nonsense. Most people struggle with basic math already, and you want to heap more on that? Stupid. Incidentally, "coding for everybody" is just as stupid.
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Oh, those chickens materialized. But back then, the requirement to get that chicken was to have two healthy arms and the willingness to use them.
This is, as you very aptly characterized, a VERY different chicken. Back then, what people wanted to do is put up a straw hut on a concrete floor the government offers. That was easy. Today, what they want you to do is build a penthouse on top of a house you have to build first.
Re: You mean just as dishonest? (Score:2)
I'm a bit confused by your allegory, but the only way somebody goes hungry in this country is either their own choice or negligence on the part of their legal guardian.
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The analogy was supposed to convey the message that back then, it was trivial for a worker to fulfill the requirements for taking that job. You were able bodied, you could take it.
This is not the case with CS. You have to understand the whole crap if you want to amount to anything. And from experience I can tell you, it is not possible to teach this to everyone.
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And from experience I can tell you, it is not possible to teach this to everyone.
May as well try to teach BA-level mathematics to everyone. That would probably work better (as teaching mathematics is understood far better) but still be an abysmal failure. Incidentally, I know PhD-level mathematicians that are really good at their job but cannot program for shit.
Well, next spring, I will teach coding for first year students for the second time in my life. Will be interesting to see how that works out.
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I also know programmers who can't solve a simple integral.
I stopped teaching when I noticed that you're stuck with a load of students that don't want to do it. I now understand a bunch of people who went to school with me, became teachers and now are in adult education at our various adult education companies. There, you teach people who actually want to learn. It's way less stressing.
I think we should do the same with CS. It's not for everyone and it's not something everyone will need in their life. Actual
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I also know programmers who can't solve a simple integral.
Then here is your special skill testing question: What is the integral of e^x?
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This is not the case with CS. You have to understand the whole crap if you want to amount to anything. And from experience I can tell you, it is not possible to teach this to everyone.
This year I'm anticipating making about $270,000 as a programmer, and I've never taken a single day of CS. Is that not amounting to anything?
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Most people struggle with basic math already, and you want to heap more on that? Stupid.
Indeed. Get rid of math. Who is ever going to need it anyway? And you can't do science without math, so get rid of that. That just leads to the global warning hoax and the questioning of God. God Guns and Guts! No need to teach history as it will just repeat itself. Everyone can get it on the next time around. Language is just going to change over time, so don't teach english. And why learn about other people. That has nothing to do with me, so get rid of social studies.
So where does that leave
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God, Guns and Guts!
I'm more partial to the Farscape [wikipedia.org] line, "Leather, guns and critters!" ... :-)
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will be 'CS in every school' doesn't mean that everyone has to take the courses. Right now only "51% of high schools in the US offer foundational CS" which is real dumb, all of the schools should at least offer it.
Re:You mean just as dishonest? (Score:4, Insightful)
Kids, this man is a moron. Knowledge is power. Don’t let anyone tell you different.
There is nothing wrong with a semester of CS to see if you like it.
Re: You mean just as dishonest? (Score:5, Interesting)
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you engrish needs better
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No surprise what’s on your mind.
Re: You mean just as dishonest? (Score:2)
There'd be nothing wrong with it if people capable of teaching CS competently to beginners grew on trees.
They don't. The command high salaries elsewhere and paying enough to stand them in front of classrooms where 90% of the students either won't or can't learn to code would be a waste of the teachers' time and the schools' money.
*Offering* CS in some form in every school to those willing and able to have a taste, on the other hand, is a perfectly reasonable compromise between idealism and reality.
In my hig
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There'd be nothing wrong with it if people capable of teaching CS competently to beginners grew on trees.
They don't.
Oh, yes. There is this little thing that you not only need to be very smart and have good teaching ability, you also need to understand the subject matter. Or you cannot teach anything worth crap.
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There'd be nothing wrong with it if people capable of teaching CS competently to beginners grew on trees.
The amount of education needed to teach a high school level computer science class is pretty minimal. I know I knew more BASIC than my teacher by the time I finished my own high school class on said topic for instance which means I gained a lot of knowledge relative to her minimal invest in the topic.
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It's about expanding access (Score:3)
Well the "chicken in every pot" thing is stupid but I'm pretty sure that was the journalist's fault. What isnt stupid is creating 20 times the computer science students.
Sure, computer science is most definitely not for everyone, I dont think anyone on Slashdot is arguing contrary to that point. Making sure all students in every state have access to decent CS classes is important though and Hutchinson is correct, particularly in the context of competing with China. They have three times the people we do and
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Well the "chicken in every pot" thing is stupid but I'm pretty sure that was the journalist's fault. What isnt stupid is creating 20 times the computer science students.
It is actually abysmal stupid as it ignores reality. Teach some CS at least ion Bachelor level and then come again. And remember these students, of which half or so struggle, are already the selected best ones at it.
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It is actually abysmal stupid as it ignores reality. Teach some CS at least ion Bachelor level and then come again. And remember these students, of which half or so struggle, are already the selected best ones at it.
Don't be dense. Do you really think Arkansas is going to have the same number of kids going for CS degrees when their high schools are churning out 20 times the children with experience in said topic? Even if there is a significant drop out rate more students equals more of the right kind of students as many of the "right kind" of students likely would never have majored in the topic if they hadn't gotten experience earlier in life.
This is exactly how you build interest in a major to maximize talent in a fi
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Most "computer scientists" struggle with basic math as well. In fact, so do most of physics PhD candidates, too. And the reason is also laziness and poor education. That's your problem - education quality, not people.
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Having taught academic CS classes on and off (part time, but recently it has been moving in the direction of full time because there is a massive lack of capable lecturers) for now something like 30 years, I disagree. Everything about CS, coding, modelling of a problem so they can be solved by computers, and so on requires very specific skills that in turn require very specific _talents_ or you can never get any good at it. Sure, good teaching makes a significant difference, but only to people that can lear
Not necessary but nice to have (Score:3)
But to mandate it for everyone is simply foolish. We already have too many kids that can't read at the expected grade level, let alone do anything beyond the simplest mathematics. Let's just settle on trying to achieve that before we worry about dumping anything else on them.
I'd say that a basic computer skills course might also be useful, but I suspect that most kids are already more proficient with the technology than the people who would be trying to teach them.
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We already have too many kids that can't read at the expected grade level, let alone do anything beyond the simplest mathematics. Let's just settle on trying to achieve that before we worry about dumping anything else on them.
This. This right there!
We are worried that we don't have Olympic athletes when we actually have the problem that we have people who can't even walk properly. Solve that problem first, then the athletes will come all by themselves.
Re: Not necessary but nice to have (Score:2)
We are worried that we don't have Olympic athletes when we actually have the problem that we have people who can't even walk properly. Solve that problem first, then the athletes will come all by themselves.
We're a big country, you can do both. You don't shut down the NIH because idiots don't understand how vaccines work. You work at both ends.
Also, that is not how you run a competitive program for _anything_. Are you trying to play the game, or compete? To compete you need a broad pipeline, a wide net, of recruiting and training. Otherwise you get what you get. Anyone arguing against building wide and deep technical training pipelines needs to get their head out from their ass. Not everyone wants to play socc
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What I want is to give people who want to learn this the training the need. What you get when you try a "one size fits all" approach where you dump it on every single student, no matter whether they have any aptitude for it or not is a bunch of bored students who can't follow the curriculum and try to spoil it for the rest so the average drops low enough that they can somehow pass the class.
Re: Not necessary but nice to have (Score:1)
Re:Not necessary but nice to have (Score:5, Informative)
I think a course of "CS basics" is good to incorporate into schooling. Concepts of variables, functions, if statements, loops and logic can apply to lot of nonprogramming areas of technology. I know I learned logic stuff in math class but I think having everyone learn in the context of computing would be helpful.
I went to a technical HS so I took 2 years of programming back in the 90's and even though I ended up not liking it enough to take it up as a career those basics have helped a lot in other areas, especially in just being able to do simple scripting and being able to parse simple programs.
No (Score:1)
CS is not BA. You can't just cram the shit into your head, regurgitate it and be good at it. That's not how that works. You have to understand it. You have to actually be able to apply what you learn to the problem at hand and be able to use it.
You cannot force people to do that. You can't learn that to the test, at least not if you want this to have any semblance of usefulness.
So please, please do not do it. The pupils who don't give a shit about it will kill it for the few ones that actually do, leading t
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The objective was to at least offer CS courses in high school. I don't see where it said the students would be forced to take them.
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I totally agree. At least one computer literacy course with some coding should be required learning in high school.
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And have you ever sat in a class where 90% of the students had ZERO interest in the subject as someone who actually wanted to hear about it? You will be bullied until you, too, lose any interest in it.
Can't have the Poindexter ruin the class average for everyone, ya know...
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A lot of high school courses are snoozers, history and english come to mind. But computers are a crucial source of porn, and therefore people will be motivated to know how to use them
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Offer them? Great idea, kids who have an affinity with CS will have a chance to get a leg up.
Force them? Bad idea, kids who have no interest in CS will spoil it for those few who do.
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I am torn on the issue; I think that exposure is extremely valuable, at least in theory. In practical terms though I know my friend that teaches CS in a smaller semi-rural school doesn't think it is what the kids really want in a collective sense. So they end up teaching Microsoft Office.
Personally, I am happy that I went to junior high and high schools that had wood shop, metal shop, drafting, typing, electrical lab, and "home economics" classes. I learned important life skills through those classes that I
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Offering it to students that are interested in it is a good idea. Forcing kids into a class like this where they actually have to pay attention to the subject if they have no desire to do so is killing the subject, and the interest of those that were actually interested.
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In Junior High I was forced to take a "Practical Arts" and "Fine Arts" rotation one semester-- about 10 weeks per section, covering shop, drafting, typing, and home economics in the former and music, theater, and ...something else in the latter. While I hated parts of each rotation, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate what I learned today. The drafting class as an example might have been useless for many people, but it focused on the mechanical approach to 2D representation of 3D objects, which is pretty u
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You may appreciate it today, but what did you do back then? Call the geeks who enjoyed doing it names? Tried to shame them for actually enjoying it?
Hey Genius (Score:1)
You want to compete with China? Here's a thought: how about keeping a couple jobs here in the U.S. for all your magical new computer science drones?
While you're at it, how about making it possible for someone over the age of 28 to keep one those jobs for more than six weeks?
P.S. You wouldn't know computer science if it attached itself to your face and implanted an egg.
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Cut him some slack, you're talking to a politician. He never worked a day in his life.
Re: Hey Genius (Score:2)
Re: Hey Genius (Score:2)
Why do people keep insisting on this idea that after a certain age, nobody hires you? Everybody keep saying you can't get IT or development work after 40. Then, I got hired at a top shelf employer for the first actual programming job I've ever had after I turned 40 and mentioned this, then somebody (drinkypoo I think?) said it's actually 50. But there's a guy who's desk isn't far from mine who was hired at 52... So what...is it 60 now?
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I was hired for my current individual contributor job at age 65. I guess the cutoff must be 70 now. Of course it helps that I do have three somewhat esoteric skills that were needed by the company that hired me, but it's nothing a relatively good programmer couldn't pick up in a reasonable amount of time.
Let's just say that commonplace skills don't cut it the older you get. Someone who knows ONLY Python and SQL will be out of a job by age 40. Being expert at C++ might keep you in the game until age 50. You
No. (Score:2)
This is "we will be competitive" and not "you will prosper", it's a very different message.
Could it work? Maybe. You should have some kind of programming "class" (course of study, anyhow, which need not be year-long in earlier stages) at each level of school, e.g. one each in elementary, junior high, and high school, and also in college of course. If you don't become interested in it by then and seek it out, it's probably not for you. But every person should have a functional understanding of computing in a
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Everyone has a cellphone in their pocket today, but I can say with some conviction that people know less about how they work than people did in the 90s.
Ask anyone with a cellphone what an AT command is. Including geeks. Every single person who used internet in the 90s knew exactly what AT commands are. They are still around, indeed, but they are so far abstracted away that nobody even knows that they issue an ATD multiple times per day.
A "functional understanding" in our world doesn't even require you to kn
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I was doing phone tech support back then, and very, very few of the customers I spoke to had the slightest idea what an AT command meant. Not only that, between half and two thirds of my cow orkers didn't know what the various commands did. It wasn't the least bit unusual to read somebody's case notes and see that they'd dictated a long, complicated AT command to set the modem up the right way, and ended it with Z. Tha
Joke (Score:1)
taco trucks (Score:2)
This is more like "taco trucks on every corner". They are saying "if we don't have enough computer nerds we'll have Szechuan trucks on every corner."
Depends ... at least a little. (Score:3)
Computers and networks are a huge part of life now, so I think it would be a good thing for a CS curriculum to be at least available to all/any students. I would go further to say a computer science overview course be required to provide an introduction to computing and networking concepts, etc... so people have at least some, common, accurate, understanding of things and how they actually work -- especially as they'll be using/interacting with them for the rest of their lives. That said, I don't think everyone needs programming and/or detailed CS courses or should be required to take them.
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Pretty much everything needs to be available to all students. That's why there's band and chem and football and etc. Some people know both what they like and what they're good at, and if they're blessed, its the same thing. But people have to sample everything to learn that this subject is easy but I just love that subject and it doesn't bother me to work 3 times as hard to learn it because it is a joy. So, put the CS out there, some people will gravitate and do it to death, and some of those may ac
mandatory CS (Score:2)
going to take a lot of proper planning and thought, otherwise I can't think of any better way to drain the enthusiasm out of it.
Unless they're careful (and the play-politics with education types never are) the kids that were once interested will be pissed they have to sit through "excel for idiots" and the kids that don't care will grow to hate it.
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And this is what I'm worried about. School has the potential to kill any kind of interest or enthusiasm a young person can have for a subject. Imagine you're interested in something and are actually looking forward to learning about it because you want to do it, and you're sitting in a class of people who don't. Worse, who are bored because they can't, and also don't want to, follow the course and are being disruptive. And just to spoil your fun they'll do what they can to ensure that you won't enjoy it eit
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Oh please... (Score:4, Insightful)
We can't get books in every classroom, let's start there before trying to get CS in every school.
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It's kinda hard to have books in every classroom when every other book that exists gets banned from schools.
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We can't get books in every classroom, let's start there before trying to get CS in every school.
And school supplies. There is a distressingly huge amount of teachers who use their own money to provides basic supplies for their classrooms so that their students can learn. Why US society doesn't demand basic supplies, books and a decent salary to teachers when literally the rest of the civilized world does is beyond me. Our priorities are screwed up and we are paying for that now.
CS isn't a bad idea (Score:2)
It teaches logical thinking and breaking things down into fundamental steps. Even if you never code again after graduating high school, you will have picked up a valuable life skill.
Then again, I also think you should have to have a basic grasp of statistics and probability before you graduate, so what do I know?
Sounds funny if you consider level of math (Score:1)
To understand abstract concepts of CS you need to speak abstract language of math. And here is the problem: math education in the US not improving. In California (!!!) they dumbing d
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Maybe it's time we accept that yes, we will have to leave some duds behind if we don't want to hold back those that can do better.
No (Score:2)
Everybody needs meat (Score:2)
US children can't learn sex education or the colonialism in American history, and literacy and numeracy standards have been dropping for 20 years (approximately, at the introduction of the "No child left behind" policy). But they need to know how to make a "turtle" draw a square, or instruct ChatGPT to write a report. (While "computer science" is maths.) It reveals the purpose of public education hasn't changed. How to create economic growth and serve your government is valued more than becoming a bette
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ChatGPT closes a very problematic gap, so far teaching to the test only worked for tests you can actually learn by heart, but the essays still were a problem. With ChatGPT, we can close that loophole and finally give our students the ability to turn in written reports that are at least grammatically correct and, barring the fluke hallucination, are even on topic.
Not really, no (Score:2)
Mostly because this time around, we got the far right trying to eliminate public education entirely. Look at Tulsa, right now, with state superintendent Ryan Walters trying to get the accreditation of the school district pulled because they won't force prayer in schools or disrespect people's pronouns, knowing his stochastic terrorism is going to cause actual right-wing terrorists to bomb schools.
Republicans want this for your city, too. [google.com]
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We had prayers in schools, and I fully endorse it.
Nothing gets kids pissed off at that shit faster. Maybe add religious education, that should seal the deal.
Quite frankly, my country has a concordat with the Vatican that enforces 2 hours of religious education a week, and due to our equality laws, this means that EVERY religious group gets to force two hours of religious bull on the kids, at school, at my (taxpayer) expense. There's a reason we're one of the more secular countries on the planet, no later th
Hokey dokey crap (Score:1)
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Is it already "junk in every pot"?
Or what do the cool kids call processed fast food these days?
Ballsy. Republican leadership is in short supply. (Score:2)
No skin in the game. It's good to see fleeting moments whenever the poles of the countervailing political factions aren't completely in the tank for tribal reasons, their campaign donors, or patronizing demographics. OTOH, it's kind of pathetic to celebrate minor victories that more isn't expected from political leaders. "Where have all of the competent leaders gone?" is the nagging question.
America has multiple national security problems. One them is the educational output. First, a brain drain with dec
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Domestic talent is mostly lacking because there is no fitting role models.
What role models did we have in the 1960s? Astronauts. Every single one of them at least a master's in some STEM field, a lot of them even PhDs. You want to be like an astronaut? Grab your physics and maths books and start cramming, that's your road to success. And even if you don't make it on top of that rocket, you will be part of that program, as someone who designs that rocket, as someone who calculates that trajectory, who gets o
WTF for? (Score:1)
WTF for? So we can compete with some guy on the other side of the world for 25 cents an hour? Makes you wonder who gives the pols this idea.....
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Because you only have to sell this dream to the parents who'll then believe that their kid (who could barely keep his eyes open in CS 101) will get hired as a rockstar coder and make bank.
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Yep, the same parents who vote.... lather rinse repeat for the last 40 odd years...
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But that's the only thing little Timmie can be good at, because he isn't good at baseball and he isn't good at shop, so he has to be one of those geeks, right? Right?
It can't be that Timmie is just useless. It's my little Timmie we're talking about after all!
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it's the GOP candidate who noticed that the salary of computer science geeks is too high, and they are mostly voting DEM, so they need to suffer.
No (Score:2)
We the people (Score:1)
Only when the candidates know the real issues will they have a choice instead of just doing theatrics.
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You think the representatives don't know about the real problems real people have? They have almost daily reports about surveys on what people think are their most pressing problems.
That they ignore them is not because they don't know about them.
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Well maybe not "little bit' more like 'quite a bit'.
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brain surgeons (Score:2)
political moron.
idiots (Score:2)
Such promises are very useful in order to see who is the bigger idiot. Yeah, we need CS in every school, but kids can't read or multiply. BTW, CS -- that's the computer stuff, like how to post on Twitter, right?
You either love it or you don't care (Score:2)
CS in school is just like any other subject. You either love it or you don't care about it. Some people geek out over foreign languages or art or theater. Most people don't. Everyone has their passion and giving students the exposure to a lot of different things will help them find it. I was very fortunate in the late 70s and early 80s to be able to go to a private school that spent money on computers and made courses in them available. The school also had a first-rate science program that had classes
California is ahead of Texas (Score:4, Interesting)
Yet when it comes to education, California, the biggest blue state is a joke and way behind red states like Texas. In Silicon Valley, computer science is only offered as a high school elective, with no general literacy programs in elementary and middle schools.
Is there a reasonable doubt that education can solve the problems like racial inequity and climate change (largely an engineering issue) in a single generations while there is absolutely no chance these problems will be solved without a highly education population. Now granted, there are factors beyond school curriculum that determine academic success, but school curriculums and quality of instruction are certainly a factor.
Why is my kids' summer reading list is then composed entirely of books about black or gay suffering with no Python in the mix? Can we fire all the excess administrators and DEI officers and use the money to teach subjects that will help kids support themselves as adults and contribute to society in tangible ways?
Purely on education, I would go for a Republican governor in CA right now, knowing that democratic majority would keep various Republican-specific nutcasery in check. And I do think education is perhaps the most important issue in long view.
Wishful thinking there, bud. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education [usnews.com] Also, isn't Texas the state trying to claim slavery is "involuntary relocation" as well as other nutty stuff? Instead of pushing a political agenda, Texas should focus on basic facts and STEM. Also, living in one of the bluest cities in the bluest states, no one is talking about CRT here. I only hear about it on Fox News. The facts simply don't support your assertions. Also, how did that last Republican governor work out in California?
:) Texas is succeeding in spite of itself, not because of Abbott...and frankly his stupid Abortion chest thumping is scaring away top talent. Sure, H1Bs from cultures where their mommy picks their wife may not care, but ban abortion in your state and good luck attracting young women with options...no women...good luck keeping men from cultures where women aren't forced on you by your family. If Texas doesn't reverse course soon, all their recent gains in the Austin tech centers will be reversed. A company can move their headquarters there, but all their employees will want to work in offices in other states. Good luck maintaining the school system if no young people want to live there.
The Democrats aren't perfect, but you can't simply make up nonsense without citations to back it up. Also, Python is a shit language....let's keep that one out of the schools.
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Also, isn't Texas the state trying to claim slavery is "involuntary relocation" as well as other nutty stuff? Instead of pushing a political agenda, Texas should focus on basic facts and STEM.
Nope, that was a failed school board proposal. I am sure there is some nutty stuff taught in red states, I remember hearing of creationism textbook inserts. However, I don't think they waste as much instruction time on right wing nutcasery as blue states do on CRT. We looked at a Catholic school as a high school option not because we are interested in religion but because apart from divinity class they actually teach real stuff pretty well. Same deal here.
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In Silicon Valley, computer science is only offered as a high school elective, with no general literacy programs in elementary and middle schools.
And that's sensible.
What kind of "computer course" would you offer in elementary school? How to use a tablet or a cellphone? Who's gonna teach whom here, the kids probably know better how to use those than the teacher.
Anything computer, twice so programming, is something that only makes sense if people WANT to do it. You can't cram that. That's not how it works. Teach it to those kids that show an interest in it and leave the rest the fuck alone.
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We had BASIC in middle school back in Soviet Union, 12 year olds are plenty smart to code. As to "you can't cram", it applies to anything - math, biology, critical theory, and yet all of these things are taught in elementary schools. Might as well choose a few things which are useful and introduce them in interesting, age appropriate manner. Making an animated cartoon is a form of programming.
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What the hell is critical theory?