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C# To Crush Java? 93

Posted by timothy from the aren't-you-supposed-to-grind-that-stuff dept.
Hector73 writes: "Cringely predicts that C# will blow away Java in the upcoming years. He raises some good points, but fails to differentiate between client-side Java vs server-side Java. I believe the bells have tolled for SWING, but server-side Java is holding strong."
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C# To Crush Java? More

C# To Crush Java?

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  • What a crock of crap! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by manyoso ( 260664 )
    Perhaps CSharp will surpass Java in the hearts and minds of programmers in the years to come...? _Perhaps_!

    Basically the only reasons this article gives for this supposed eventuality is: "Java" is "bulky, slow, and buggy." and "Now Java just plain feels old."

    And then the author has the audacity to say, "Sun is giving up, descending to name-calling."

    Just some more FUD. Nothing to see here. Move along.

    • Re:What a crock of crap! (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I'm a software developer. I worked with Java for a few months. I know that this is not a lot, and I don't claim to be an expert in Java.

      Frankly, I strongly dislike Java. Why?

      Java is a simplified C++. This is a very good thing.

      Unfortunately, they have removed way too many useful features of C++. Features which may seem useless to academics and idealists, but which are useful in the real world.

      C# designers did not make the same mistake. They did not remove as many C++ features as the Java designers did. They also ADDED some useful features like properties, etc.

      I have worked very little with C# (mainly due to being busy with other projects), and I instantly liked it.

      Compared to Java, C# is a more feature-rich language.

      I like C# a lot more than Java.

      I almost like it as much as Python, which is my favorite language.

  • Not Likely. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by fava ( 513118 ) on Thursday November 01, 2001 @07:56PM (#2510078)
    One thing you must remember before writing Java off compleatly is that Java is the language being taught to most University CS students, I cannot see all these recent graduates deciding to abandon Java in favor of C#.

    As well many companies that are using Java are doing so primarly because it is portable. C# lacks that feature.

    • Re:Not Likely. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Hector73 ( 463708 )
      One thing you must remember before writing Java off compleatly is that Java is the language being taught to most University CS students

      So was PASCAL ...
    • > I cannot see all these recent graduates deciding to abandon Java in favor of C#.

      Since when do 'recent graduates' control what language they use on their first/second jobs?

      They will program in whatever language they are told to use, period.

  • At the risk of stating the obvious.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pwagland ( 472537 ) on Thursday November 01, 2001 @08:02PM (#2510116) Journal
    We all know that Microsoft make great marketing solutions. Sometimes, these are even really great products. But the key point here is, as Cringley said, microsoft will market C# better than Sun did Java. And because it is marketed better it will get mindshare. And once it gets mindshare, it will get marketshare. One step at a time...

    However, C# is still windows centric. To a lot of people this means diddly squat. If it allows you to work more easily to your target platform, then people will use it. Witness the success of Visual Basic as proof. And that thing is a cow if you ever have to maintain the "code" that gets produced with it.

    This is not all bad news however. Despite the success of VB, there is still a "niche" market for C programmers. Just as there will be for Java programmers. And the split will go roughly the same way I think. On non-microsoft and server platforms Java will continue to be used. On the "frontend" microsoft boxes then C# will become the new Visual Basic...

    And sure, we "profressionals" will deride these "sellouts", and pretend that we are somehow superiour. But in reality, it is just people using the most appropiate tools for the job at hand.
    • Visual Basic is ugly, and always has been. But there are already millions of Java programmers, most of whom took up Java because a) it's an easy language and they wanted to move away from VB, b) they like its cross platform capabilities, or c) they like its cross platform capabilities because they don't like Microsoft (see (a)).

      I remember reading another /. article saying that Java was poised to become even more dominant than C/C++. Many of these Java developers probably took it up so that they could program web-based applets and such. And the reason why Java is a great web/applet platform is because of its cross platform nature. Are these people going to switch to C# all of a sudden? It defeats the original purpose of applets and Java.
      So how is Microsoft going to switch all of these people? Mostly, I think it will be people who say "I like Microsoft, I like Java, and I like VB (ant want to re-use my old code); let's combine them all." But the number of people who want this, is, from my viewpoint, much less than the number of people who want to stay away from old buggy VB code and proprietary solutions.

      So in summary, I think C# is the one that will have a "niche" market, and Java will be (and already is) far more mainstream.

  • My letter to Bob (Score:5, Informative)

    by hardcorejon ( 31717 ) <jonathan.kyuss@org> on Thursday November 01, 2001 @08:51PM (#2510279)
    Here's an email I sent to Bob. He used to do decent writing for InfoWorld - is that what happens when you get on the public dole?

    Hi Bob,

    I've enjoyed reading many of your columns over the years, but you really seemed to have missed the mark in the Java/C# battle, if it can even be called that.

    A few problems with C# world domination:

    1. C# Apps are tied to Windows, Windows, Windows. While this is fine and wonderful for windows developers, there are thousands of UNIX/Mac/mainframe/PalmOS/etc developers out there that will be left high and dry. And let's not forget, Java runs on everything from mainframes to smart cards.

    2. The "Java is slow" myth. More recent JVMs can actually perform as well as or BETTER than natively compiled code. This is because they do just-in-time compilation, making the Java code as fast as native machine code.

    Also, there is only so much optimization the compiler can do when you compile a program, having no idea how it will actually be used when it is run. At runtime, there is a lot more information available to the system as to what parts of the code are the real bottlenecks. Recent Java implementations employ *dynamic* runtime optimizations, where parts of the program that run more frequently are actually recompiled in an optimized manner to improve performance.

    These dynamic optimization schemes are a very exciting new field for compiler and virtual machine engineers - and they are totally lacking from poor old statically compiled C#. The very way that C# gets compiled ties you to Windows, so dynamic optimization of running C# code will be all but impossible to implement. In the long run, Java has the potential to seriously outperform all statically compiled languages.

    3. Java is open. Sun develops Java APIs and technologies in conjunction with hundreds of other companies and individuals around the world. Anyone in the world can implement most Java APIs without paying Sun a dime (now if you want that little coffee logo on your product, that's a different story, the make you pay for interoperability test for that).

    While Microsoft seems willing to "standardize" C#, they will probably open up the language itself while holding the runtime libraries close to the vest. Imagine: what good would C have been if the standard C runtime libraries were vendor-specific? What this means for developers is a single-vendor solution, just like Windows.

    A large part of Java's success comes from the fact that you can put together applications by mixing and matching pieces from multiple vendors and be guaranteed easy interoperability. For example, you can build an ecommerce website by buying a Servlet engine from Allaire, an EJB app server from BEA, and Java database drivers from Oracle - and they will all work FINE together - AND you can pick any kind of hardware and operating system! Want your developers to work in Windows, but deploy the app on UNIX? No problem. Want to upgrade from your Intel-based Dell servers to Sun's new 64-CPU UltraSPARC machine? Your code requires NO changes! You don't even need to recompile it, because Java is not statically compiled!

    What's Microsoft's answer to this? Run everything Microsoft: ASP, IIS, ADO, etc. Develop the app on Windows. Deploy the app on Windows. Stay with Windows forever, and hope Microsoft is good about fixing the plethora of bugs and security holes that will inevitably arise. With C#, who will supply the runtime libraries? The clustering and high availability support? The windowing toolkit? Microsoft, Microsoft, Microsoft.

    Developers have learned long ago that single-vendor lock-in solutions are a recipe for disaster. If you can't swap out a buggy piece with a functionally correct one from a different vendor, you're tied to the poor-quality vendor (like Microsoft).

    Do not discount Java simply because you don't see lots of consumer applications written in Java. Java has serious momentum on the server side, where interoperability, distributed computing, and high availability make Microsoft-centric solutions very problematic.

    I could give more technical with reasons why C# applications will be inherently more unstable than theit Java counterparts (access to pointers and raw memory, unchecked exceptions are legal, Microsoft-grade security, etc.) but I think I might lose you :)

    So the moral of the story is: do some better research before you write a hype-filled article like you just did - a column that is so misinformed belongs on ZDNet, not PBS.

    Cheers,

    - jonathan.

    • Re:My letter to Bob (Score:3, Informative)

      by mooneyd ( 233024 )
      Regarding Point 2: C# compiles to something like byte codes and can be either run interpretted, compiled just-in-time, compiled at install-time OR compiled at build-time. In fact, all .NET languages have these features. So not just C#, but all .NET languages (VB, C++, and for goodness sake Eiffel and everything else) will have the opportunity for the same dynamic compilation hoo-hah that Java is now enjoying.

    • Re:My letter to Bob (Score:2, Insightful)

      by mooneyd ( 233024 )
      Oh and regarding point 3: All .NET programs will run on all platforms which have a CLR (Command Language Runtime) available - kind of like... err.. exactly like a JVM. When .NET is released, CLRs will be available for Windows 98, ME, NT4, 2K, and XP which covers what percentage of computers in the world? Probably something close to the number of platforms available when JAVA was first released.

      Once .NET is understood it is easy to see that the architecture is extremely similar to JAVA while learning from some of JAVA's mistakes.

      • Re:My letter to Bob (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Providing a CLR for most common versions of Windows still doesn't come close to being enough. .NET won't run on the platforms that run most of the interet. There is no version of Windows running on 512 CPU servers.


        Of course it's not often you need to run on the big servers, but for two comparable platforms (Java/.NET) you pick the one that can scale the best. The NET platform don't offer anything that Java doesn't already provide.


        Oh and Apple has something like 5% of the PC's out there and that is still a huge number of computers.

        • Scalability vs. development speed. Who wins?

          Plus, I imagine .net can become scalable far easier than Java can host languages with pointers.
      • All my Windows programs run on 98, ME, NT4, 2K, and XP. Why is this a big deal? You make it sound as though that is "cross platform".

        Also, your argument that just because WinXXX runs some huge percentage of all computers is exactly what keeps it that way. As a user/consumer, I prefer Windows. But as a developer, I believe that I should be able to use whatever platform/language/architecture that is best for the job. Windows is *not* always the best for the job (although often it is, but often it also isn't). If Windows had 100% domination, would we all be happy?
      • , CLRs will be available for Windows 98, ME, NT4, 2K, and XP which covers what percentage of computers in the world

        what does java have to do with the desktop?
        the highest transaction servers run on Unices.
    • Its widely known that JIT compilers can only reach about 30% of the host-native speed due to the branch perdiction problem ...

      In no case will it be"as fast" then native code

      • Re:My letter to Bob (Score:3, Insightful)

        by ban ( 31369 )
        I may be completely stupid but I happen to work at a company that is developing a server side VM for Java and I really don't understand what you mean with "the branch prediction problem".

        Are you assuming that static compilers do some kind of interprocedural or whole program analysis? This is normally not the case.

        Do you think that you can't do inlining or method specialization where you take runtime information into account in a JIT? You definitely can.

        Our VM does advanced optimizations at runtime that amongst other things take single implementations of methods into account. These optimizations can be undone at runtime when new classes are loaded that invalidate the assumptions that the optimizations are based upon.

        This means that you won't do virtual dispatches to methods that only have a single implementation.

        Try to do that with a static compiler for a dynamic language.

    • Re:My letter to Bob (Score:2, Informative)

      by luttapi ( 312138 )
      Take a look at this http://www.go-mono.com

      quoting from that site: "...A rough estimate is that we might be able to run our C# compiler on Linux by the end of the year. That means running the Windows Executable generated by a Microsoft .NET compiler on the Linux platform."

    • I will be very happy if you can show me a JVM that "can actually perform as well as or BETTER than natively compiled code". I have been waiting to this to happen for years now. Where can I find this JVM, Jon?

    • Re:My letter to Bob (Score:3, Informative)

      by selectspec ( 74651 )
      While I agree with your points in your letter to Bob, I think you missed the most important point:

      Licensing Fee.

      Enterprize C# Licensing comes with a nifty $1500 per CPU application royalty.
    • Not to troll (or even take sides), but Bob has replied to your open letter in this weeks column.
      Indeed, he seems to quote you.

      The link [pbs.org] for those who still care.

  • I agree...but I don't (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MrBlack ( 104657 ) on Thursday November 01, 2001 @09:17PM (#2510359)
    I agree. Microsoft has put a huge ammount of effort into developing a quality platform in .NET, and they are betting the farm (or at least appearing to do so) on .NET. Certainly if .NET flops MS will lose face, and lots of money, but I don't really see the success or failure of .NET affecting their core monopolies. Windows and Office. I see this as MS's attempt at condsolodating their stock in the server arena, which is where other vendors like Oracle and Sun have been traditionally strong. Server-side Java rocks, and that's where MS is attacking.
  • The biggest problem with this article is that it is making the assumption that java has a strong hold in the market. The fact of the matter is, java is not being used extensive in commerical software and is being used as mainly a GUI abstraction layer in properitery software.

    Many people hear that this company is using java and that company is using java, but the fact of the matter is that while java is being used, most of the code in products still remains C and C++ or another such language.

    Java is not something that is a silver bullet language. It is a niche language.

    • Re:Assuming that Java has that firm of a market... (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Java hasn't been that successful for writing the kinds of software that users think about (games, word processors, etc...)

      But, it's been hugely successful in writing the kinds of software that businesses think about. (Servers, messaging, etc...) Java is excellent for writing middleware services, as a back-end to web pages, and the things that actually run a company day-to-day.

      Java isn't perfect, but it's good on the server. You can develop on cheap windows workstations and deploy the code (without recompiling) on your Sun servers. It's got APIs to connect to all the important databases and other stuff that makes your business go.

      Sure, it's not as fast as C. A decade ago people were still complaining that C was not as fast as assembly. In business, execution speed takes a back seat to development speed and ease of mainenance. If you're a project manager, you need to get whizbang feature X added as soon as possible, and anything that lets your developers get it up and running sooner is pure gold! Java meets this need. It's got API's for what you need, so what if they're only "good-enough". There is no time-sapping cross-platform modifications.

      I'm not a java zealot. If I had my way, we'd be moving to more dynamic languages like Python. But the people who think that java is all about crusty Swing apps are dead wrong.
      • You can develop on cheap windows workstations and deploy the code (without recompiling) on your Sun servers.

        Ha! Pull the other one, it's got bells on it. I can tell you from personal experience, having worked on a couple large projects in which Java was developed on Windows and deployed on Solaris, that it don't work like that for much beyond HelloWorld.class.

        Sure, it's not as fast as C. A decade ago people were still complaining that C was not as fast as assembly.

        Hmm...well, I have to admit that Java compilers will undoubtedly get better as time goes on. Nonetheless, I don't think the analogy is quite perfect; C and assembly both get turned into machine code, so the issue becomes one of how good your compiler is at compile-time, while Java still has another step to go before running, and I doubt that will ever be entirely overcome.

        In business, execution speed takes a back seat to development speed and ease of mainenance. If you're a project manager, you need to get whizbang feature X added as soon as possible, and anything that lets your developers get it up and running sooner is pure gold!

        Spoken like a true developer. From the customer's point of view, a project written in Java requires more hardware and more careful tuning to run at a speed equivalent to C, and usually hasn't been tested adequately (if at all) on the target platform ('cause it just runs everywhere, right?)

        • Ha! Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
          What a great line! I think I'll use it from now on :)
          I can tell you from personal experience, having worked on a couple large projects in which Java was developed on Windows and deployed on Solaris, that it don't work like that for much beyond HelloWorld.class.
          Then you were doing it wrong. I'm sure you feel better now. Having worked on several large project that were developed on windows, and deployed both to Solaris, and Linux. It worked quitely nicely thanks.
      • But, it's been hugely successful in writing the kinds of software that businesses think about. (Servers, messaging, etc...) Java is excellent for
        writing middleware services, as a back-end to web pages, and the things that actually run a company day-to-day.

        These applications aren't the high-visibility ones though. It's not like Java is replacing C++, it's just that Java is replace a mix between shell scripts, perl, python, and various other scripting languages.

        You can develop on cheap windows workstations and deploy the code (without recompiling) on your
        Sun servers.

        While this sounds neat, it's not very pratical. Everyone large application has something in it that needs to be done in native code. This is not necessarily Java's fault, it's just the difference between underlying operating systems. There are so many areas that Java just can't cover (file perm, ipcs, sockets*, etc.).

        Java works great as a niche language. That niche is small web-apps and GUI interfaces. Programs that do heavy processing or perform any kind of critical task just can't do it in Java.

        I don't hate java. I hate Python, but that's a whole other thread ;-)

        Note: Windows barely supports a subset of standard berkley sockets and therefore Java barely touchs on having all the functionality of sockets in Unix (i.e. domain sockets).

  • mod original article downto 'troll' (Score:4, Interesting)

    by cowtamer ( 311087 ) on Friday November 02, 2001 @01:38AM (#2510981) Journal
    But I'll bite anyway :)

    Java became popular in the first place because:

    1) there was a genuine need for a truly cross-platform language that had built in graphics, networking, etc. (no matter how bloated or buggy)

    2) SUN set up indoctrination camps for IT managers and marketed the heck out of Java

    3) SUN bribed colleges into teaching Java
    (My school had dropped C/C++ completely in 1997. All the computer labs are donated by Sun)

    No matter how dominant Microsoft is, I just don't see them doing what SUN did with Java and getting the same mileage. At best, they will manage to replace Visual Basic. Why would a sane (non-MS)development shop switch to a Windows-only language from something that is cross-platform? What will C# buy me that Java/C++/Visual Basic does not?

    Of course, if C# does (by some cruel twist of fate) become dominant, I would _hate_ to see what the average programmer looks like in 10 years. The _average_ "Java programmer" already acts like a brain-washed zombie posessing no problem-solving skills other than using existing Java APIs. Just imagine a world populated by the Microsoft Centric version of the same breed...

    "Java is a peculiar mixture of hype and sound technology"
    --overheard at a CS colloquium circa 1997
    • The _average_ "Java programmer" already acts like a brain-washed zombie posessing no problem-solving skills other than using existing Java APIs.

      That's why we all need Perl.

      Just kidding (I don't even code Perl usually). And I love Java, but only because it is clean and simple. If you want, you can ignore the rest of this post because I'm aware that you were only talking about the _average_ Java developer. But anyways...

      I don't love Java for most of its existing API's. Swing sucks. The Collections API sucks. In fact, most of java.util is bloated and wasteful. But that's why I code my own collections. But these are not faults of the language. Java itself is simple enough that I can write out my thoughts without pollution, worrying about pointers (although sometimes pointers are useful), or anything else.

      Say I come up with some new custom tree traversal algorithm. I write it down on paper. I code a simple object-oriented design (but I also don't waste objects - that's why many Java programs are slow). And I can even use reflection and write test cases like nobody's business. Don't even get me started on how cool it is to get my app working on the server-side.

      But mostly I'm just pointing out my own preferences here. In the long run, *every* language has its niche. Java is easy, and maybe it is a great entry point for many developers who either are tired of VB or don't want to deal with the complexity of Perl. But Perl also is incredibly useful in many cases (although I can't say the same about VB), C/C++ is also useful, and C# is probably the merging point for all of these. That's where it is attractive: integrating old modules written in different languages. But as a tool for developing an application from scratch, I can't see many people who would write something entirely in C#.

  • C# vs Java (Score:2, Insightful)

    by qbalus ( 453789 )
    Sun is excellent at computer plumbing, and has the track record to back it up.
    Microsoft has dominiated the eye balls of the end-user and they too have the track record to back it up.

    C# vs Java is a race for volume, just as IE and Netscape was a race for volume. This race won't turn out the same way though because game has changed

    And that game is Open Source. Open Source is the wild card in this battle. Without Open Source, I believe Microsoft would win in short order.

    qbalus

    • Re:C# vs Java (Score:2, Interesting)

      by big_hairy_mama ( 79958 )
      Since you're obviously one of the open source advocates who hang's out on /. (I'm not really complaining, often I am too), I just have to point out that Java and/or Sun is not open source. Sure, I can look at the source for the API, and I can file a request for enhancement, or if I'm a big company I can even have some input on the language itself. And many Java projects also happen to be Open Source. But Java is not open source. I think at least some of its appeal, however, is that it is also not Microsoft.
      • > I just have to point out that Java and/or Sun is not open source.

        Actually Wrong. Java is 'open source' in a literal sense (sign the agreement and get a copy, easy as pie). It not Open Source in philosophical sense, it's not covered by a GPL compatible licence.

        >And many Java projects also happen to be Open Source.

        I think this is closer to the point actually being made.

  • Honestly, I don't know this Cringley guy from Adam, but I don't see any reason to give him credibility. I mean, the link goes through PBS. Now, PBS is considered a good source for relatively unbiased information, but they are -not- exactly considered a major powerhouse when it comes to reporting on current events, technical or not.

    • Re:who is this guy? (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Actually, Cringley's been a computer pundit since the 80s. I remember reading his articles in Infoworld when I was younger.

      For the most part, Cringley has always been on top of current events. His predictions, however, range from almost psychic to out there in left field. He's been in the business for quite awhile, though, and I don't think you can really cast aspersions on his credibility.
  • Witness also the [cnet.com]
    latest cracks in the friendship
    between SAP [sap-ag.de] and Microsoft [microsoft.com] wether or not, they'll
    support .Net

    Big things are coming ;-)

  • Bogus, all cause of one analogy... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by FortKnox ( 169099 ) on Friday November 02, 2001 @12:01PM (#2512271) Homepage Journal
    J2EE

    C# has nothing that can compair to J2EE. The bonus' you get with J2EE in a large-scale system will easily destroy anything .NET can come up with.

  • Why are /.'ers even READING Cringely?!?! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jbuilder ( 81344 ) <evadnikufesin@@@gmail...com> on Friday November 02, 2001 @12:46PM (#2512516)
    Let's keep a few things straight... Shall we? Oh, I think we shall.

    First.. Cringely is a moron. In fact, he's not even the *first* Cringely! He's to tech journalism what the Dread Pirate Roberts in the Princess Bride is to that whole story line! He's a buffoon who took the name from the *previous* Robert X Cringely (and he's either the 4th or 5th RXC the last time I counted). He has no real background in computers and is *hardly* qualified to comment on anything tech related, forget about commenting on languages. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he won't the right to take over the name in a poker game over a few (dozen) beers.

    Next.. Let's talk about the creator of C#, Anders.. aka the near killer of Borland Pascal. This guy doesn't have a CLUE about what makes object-oriented languages truly functional. And perfect examples *include* Delphi and C#. Delphi is finally becoming a 'real' OO language *since* his exit from Borland. And what does he do when he first get's to Microsoft? He makes ANOTHER Delphi - including all it's early shortcomings as a developing language, but changes the Pascal syntax for C syntax. The end result is a language (based on C) that is effectively castrated of it's most graceful and useful (C-specific) features. Ander's did you learn nothing from your years at Borland?

    Also, how in the name of hell is C# (a Windows-only compiler at this time) going to EVER enter the Java (cross platform) space?? The answer is simply, it won't. No one is going to write a free C# compiler just for Linux and Solaris and with Java available in those platforms already C# is going to have an uphill battle (to say the very least).

    Next - and you people who keep saying this either don't use Java or read the Microsoft websites too much - SWING IS NOT DEAD! Swing has more commercial applications written in it now than ever (JBuilder, AppGen, and basically everything from TogetherSoft is just the tip of the iceberg and are just to name a few). Now I'm *terribly sorry* if Java has pump a crimp in your plans to take over the world with Visual Basic, but now it's time to learn a REAL language and use REAL tools to develop REAL applications. Not a damn OLE automation controller with a half-ass scripting language.
    • Swing has more commercial applications written in it now than ever (JBuilder, AppGen, and basically everything from TogetherSoft is just the tip of the iceberg and are just to name a few).

      Yes, 10 is greater than 0.

      The few commercial SWING apps that do exist are used primarily by Java developers (JBuilder, TogetherJ, etc). Coincidence?
      I think not.

      SWING starts slow (despite HotSpot), eats up a whole bunch of memory (more than M$ bloatware), and then continues to run slow. It is not, and, IMHO, never will be ready for wide-scale use by the masses.

      For what its worth, I work in a Java-mostly software development company and have been profesionally developing in Java since 1.0 ('97).

    • Quoting...
      ---------------
      Next.. Let's talk about the creator of C#, Anders.. aka the near killer of Borland Pascal. This guy doesn't have a CLUE about what makes object-oriented languages truly functional. And perfect examples *include* Delphi and C#. Delphi is finally becoming a 'real' OO language *since* his exit from Borland. And what does he do when he first get's to Microsoft? He makes ANOTHER Delphi - including all it's early shortcomings as a developing language, but changes the Pascal syntax for C syntax. The end result is a language (based on C) that is effectively castrated of it's most graceful and useful (C-specific) features. Ander's did you learn nothing from your years at Borland?
      ---------------

      Delphi/Object Pascal happens to be one of the largest non-MS languages/environments that gets used in a business environment. In my opinion, it is designed quite well, and has been for years. It optimizes quite well, and creates really fast code. The reason MS hired Anders was b/c he was responsible for parts of the language that worked very well in practice, not just in theory.

      As for nobody writing a C# compiler for GNU/Linux, check out go-mono.com.



      • Delphi/Object Pascal happens to be one of the largest non-MS languages/environments that gets used in a business environment. In my opinion, it is designed quite well, and has been for years. It optimizes quite well, and creates really fast code. The reason MS hired Anders was b/c he was responsible for parts of the language that worked very well in practice, not just in theory.


        Largest non-MS language used in business? Based on what?? Have you done a job search for programmers lately. For every 100 jobs out there you'll see the that C++ has the highest demand, followed by Java, then VB and THEN (if you even SEE it) Delphi.

        Yea I suppose it's one of the largest non-MS environments out there, but Java's is bigger.

        And all Anders did was make the Delphi UI. He did NOT come up with the parts of the language that you speak of. The guys who are still at Borland busting their butts are the ones who did that.


        As for nobody writing a C# compiler for GNU/Linux, check out go-mono.com.


        I'll look into it. Still I doubt I'll find a de-balled C compiler very interesting. I mean - even MS doesn't have faith in it. Don't believe me? Can you say "J#"? I think you can... ;)

    • I think you are confused.

      There are people working on C# compilers and runtimes for non-Windows platforms. Mono [go-mono.com] and Portable.NET are both working on the problem.

      C# is actually a very good object oriented language. There is a complete type unification in C#. In C# structures and basic data types (like int, char, double) can be treated as objects with no hacks attached (I am not familiar with the Java hacks, but those who know claim that Java has some kind of difference between int and integer, or something like that).

      C# is very much like Java, with a few extensions: properties, events, delegates and contains support for attributes (arbitrary metadata you can attach to language elements).
      \
      • If C# is so damn much like Java, then why are they making J#?!?!?!

        Sorry, you haven't sold me on it.

        Oh.. and as for Properties, Events, Delegates (Methods) Java 2 has a PME and has had one for a while. Borland helped Sun with the initial implementation and design of it. The 'Attributes' do sound nice, but could easily be implemented in Java. Again, you haven't sold me on it.

        I'm only as confused as you are brainwashed.. ok?

        Of course, if you can use it to write killer first person shooter games, then I'll be all for it.. ;)
  • It seems that once again we have solid evidence of a M$ AstroTurfer. This time on the Java.Sun.Com Advanced Languages discussion board. Apparently the Author of a C# book, advocating the article, advocating the book, advocating the technology.

    http://genamics.com/developer/csharp_comparative .h tm
    http://forum.java.sun.com/profile.jsp?user=98551
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/059600079 0/ ref=ase_genamics/102-2503511-3184958

  • Neither Java nor C# are Open standards. C, C++, Perl take your pick, are Open languages. Don't confuse runs anywhere with Open. OSI, ANSI or some other .ORG must own the standard for it to be considered open.

    Microsoft will spend whatever it takes, take as many revs as the market requires, for C# to become the dominant programming language in the world. What other high tech company can be described as being willing to behave that way right now? Would Apple, Sun, Oracle, even IBM spend WHATEVER IT TAKES to accomplish ANYTHING?

    IBM has commited to spending $1 Billion on Linux this year. That is not "WHATEVER IT TAKES", it's merely $1 Billion. Chump change.
    • What makes a language an "Open Standard". Some would say that accreditation by a major standards organization (eg ISO), but I have to say that the way ISO C++ progressed made a mockery of this... before ISO standardization began, C++ was a very open language based on a single reference implementation (ie Stroustrops [sp?]). The committee for standardization took this language and introduce several bizarre variants, changed the meanings of parts of the language [in for (int i = 0; ... ) { } what is the scope of i?], etc.

      I would say that the definition of openness is:

      - a single, well documented reference implementation
      - a concisely written specification of how it should behave in all situations (even if some of these are unspecified)
      - no core part of the specification depends upon some intellectual property that would have to be licensed in a new implementation
      The only possible conflict I would say that stands in the way of Java being an open standard is Sun's restrictions on the use of the Java trademark. I don't care what some poncy standard accreditation body says. Java is as 'open' as needs be. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be the possibility of alternative implementations (eg Kaffe, GCJ, etc.).

      I haven't looked in detail at C# yet, but I do suspect it reallys on some of MS's proprietary APIs and a lot of these do depend upon MSs intellectual property (I understand that the DCOM interface, certain to be core to the whole thing, has patent issues, for example).
  • I work as a consultant with Java based and MS based projects. I think C# is a good language as it allows developers to move between the two systems and take their knowledge with them. If you become proficient in one, you can work with the other in a very short time. It has to be good news for programmers.
  • For those of you that seem to think Java is on it's way out the door; have you tried to perform a job search lately? When I seached on monster.com, techies.com and several other local (MN) sites, the positions for Java developers outnumbered any other language at least 3 to 1 (VB being the closest). People seem to be limiting their thinking to shrink wrapped products where Java is rather scarce. However, Java is most definitely the standard for Enterprise applications, and that is where the money is. I have been involved in many deals where fortune 500 companies are willing to pay upwards of 1.5 million dollars for Java applications and almost always run them on Unix. Such companies have invested so much money in Java, that I don't see them adopting .NET anytime soon.
  • What about Mono [go-mono.com]? What about the way the language has been submitted to ECMA together with the VM specs and the API?

    It may come from Microsoft, but much of the team behind it are Borland and just because MS is behind it isn't a kiss of death. Personally, I stopped getting religious about languages afer Algol was shoved down my throat at Uni. They all have their pluses and minuses. Java is under the thumb of Sun whereas MS want to get C# adopted by a standard's body. For me, that is a big plus.

    A free C# compiler is in development now. It can't bootstrap itself yet, but it is getting there, however it is being built on Linux and should be out soonish. MS don't support the effort, of course but if they make a language public, it will get adopted. Miguel de Icaza, the lead developer of Mono doesn't seem to worry about MS.

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