Oracle Thinks Google Owes $6.1 Billion In Damages 243
An anonymous reader writes "When Oracle acquired Sun in 2009, the company got its hands on a lot of desirable technology. While OpenOffice may have fallen by the wayside, Oracle isn't about to let the Java programming language and its associated patents remain untouched if they can generate some additional revenue. In fact, the company is currently in the middle of a legal battle with Google over those patents that could potentially net Oracle billions and leave Android crippled. In August last year Oracle sued Google for infringing Java patents and copyright by developing Android. Oracle argues that Android uses technology derived from Java and therefore infringes multiple patents. It wants compensation, but with most court documents and details not publicly available, it's hard to know specifics. However, new documents made available late last week revealed just how much Oracle thinks is an acceptable damages payment for Google to make. According to an expert Oracle hired, Google could be looking at a bill between $1.4 billion and $6.1 billion for its alleged infringements."
New Google Strategy (Score:5, Funny)
1. Buy Oracle
2. Sack those who are responsible for the suit.
3. Open Java to the Public Domain
4. Sell Oracle.
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Re:New Google Strategy (Score:4, Informative)
Even if your strategy wasn't impractical, what would make you think that Google would want to make Java public domain?
Google, for all their recent goofs, still believes in making things available - grow through acceptance and use of technology, rather than standing over customers and developers with a fee schedule and a large club.
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That's not an argument. Why should it be made public domain? If I (as Google in this hypothetical situation) spend billions of dollars to buy Oracle, what do I get for making Java public domain? How does it add value to the shareholders?
Paying a large sum of money to acquire a company, dump one of it's prime assets for free and then selling it again (no doubt at a huge loss since it has less assets now) makes no sense at all. The shareholders would rightly crucify them.
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Even if your strategy wasn't impractical, what would make you think that Google would want to make Java public domain?
I don't think Google would make the Java tools and libraries public domain. I think Google would release them under an MIT-style open source license, as they've done with the Go language.
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oracle is worth more then google on paper.
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It would be funnier if they Open-Sourced Oracle DB Kept Oracles Patent Portfolio and put all the different parts of Oracle up on EBay or Craislist.
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Most of Java is licensed under the GPL to begin with - that's actually better than public domain in some ways, because this could be used to turn around and bite Oracle in the ass, since they are distributing GPL-licenses software, and the terms require it to not be hindered by patents else it can't be redistributed. So they could not only get hit by estoppel since they are in fact inviting people to infringe their patents, but those sued could conceivably turn around and countersue Oracle for immense damag
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Re:New Google Strategy (Score:4, Informative)
they only need to own 51%
Oracle's Market Cap = 161.13B
Price to control = 80.565B
Google's Cash on Hand = 36.67B
so yea they are short a bit..
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I think you meant to say "controlling interest"? If say, a company is owned equally by five groups, each with 20% of the stock, you could control the company by acquiring 25% of the stock.
Of course owning 51% guarantees you controlling interest, but strictly speaking, it's not necessary
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Depends on whether the other shareholders agree with you ?
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You don't think Google could find enough other tech companies who want to cripple Oracle? Deep pockets + collective effort = collective ownership of controlling interest in Oracle. Google and Microsoft could team up, eat up Oracle, and Google could let Microsoft get all the database/middleware business for their troubles (with Google walking away unscathed).
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Not sure. Doesn't the majority shareholder still have to act in the interest of the company? AFAIK there are laws as to what the majority share holder is allowed to do as to not ruin the investment that the minority shareholders have in the company.
If it is in Oracle's interest to sue Google for copyright infringement, then I'm not sure if buying 51% of Oracle would really allow Google to cancel that lawsuit.
Obviously this is all academic anyway.
Couple of errors there (Score:3, Insightful)
First of all, cash isn't the only method for corporate acquisitions. The other one is that they buyer can trade their own equity for the purchase; "I'll give you n shares of my stock for each m shares of yours." This can be combined with cash, but cash is part of the buyer's market cap too, so to estimate one company's capacity to buy another, you look at the market cap, not at the cash reserves. GOOG are 155.99B, so they'd still have to give away more than half of their company to get half of Oracle.
S
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Don't worry my selective reading lead me to read this line initially.
"In August last year Oracle sued Google for infringing Java patents and copyright by developing Android. Google argues that Android uses technology derived from Java and therefore infringes multiple patents."
I guess I was expecting Google's counter to the sue rather than more info from Oracle's perspective.
Also. Help me Slashdot. Which side am I supposed to hate? Google or Oracle?
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Which one didn't offer you a job or allow you to buy stock in the IPO?
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So sure about that?
Who knows, Sun might have survived if Google had paid royalties.
Ummm... (Score:2)
Isn't this a standard tactic, ask for some obscenely high figure and then settle for much much less?
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Isn't this a standard tactic, ask for some obscenely high figure and then settle for much much less?
Know anything about Larry Ellison? He thinks he's a Samurai. You have underestimated his determination to bring Google to their knees.
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Know anything about Larry Ellison? He thinks he's a Samurai. You have underestimated his determination to bring Google to their knees.
Eating sushi does not make you a Samurai.
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Right by Oracle is a blood money machine.. Google is a threat to them - if they have a chance at burning them i really down Larry is going to pass it down..
Also for how fast this happened after they bought Sun i wouldn't be surprised if this was planned long before they approached Sun with a buyout.
Re:Ummm... (Score:5, Insightful)
That just about sums it up. Oracle shouldn't be picking a fight with Google; they should be thanking Google for helping to spread general Java know-how and promoting it on their phones, even if they've found a way to evade the licensing fees by using a 3rd party JVM.
Nokia has just started a partnership with Microsoft, so Windows Mobile and Bing Search will probably be their standard platform, with Visual C# as the primary language. Blackberry still uses Java, but they're going down the tubes as fast as Nokia. Meanwhile, Apple continues to prefer Objective C. That leaves only Android as the major handheld platform for any flavor of Java.
If Oracle wishes to spread Java on the handheld, they could maybe start by not suing the maker of Android. They should instead be negotiating with Google, trying to integrate Oracle services into Android, maybe offer Google a good deal on a fully licensed JVM that performs better than Dalvik. Wasting millions of dollars on lawyers and risking a huge schism with Google hardly seems worth it.
Microsoft is Google's rival; Microsoft is Oracle's rival. Increasingly, Apple is Google's rival. Maybe the two should get together and unite against Microsoft (and Apple, which has little invested in Oracle's product line). Stupid lawsuits, wasting everyone's time and money. How many programmers could they have hired for the amounts they're spending and will spend on this ridiculous effort?
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Well
J2ME was a mess and a failure
Android 'fixed' Java on mobile, at what cost?!
Now it risks going down the drain again!
And Oracle doesn't care about mobile. Oracle wants the multi-million JVM corporate supports
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They should instead be negotiating with Google
This is probably simply the first stages of exactly that. I fully expect a negotiated agreement in the end, that will mutually benefit both. And probably only wind up costing Google lawyer's fees, if anything. This is just Oracle reminding Google who was ultimate authority of Java, and to increase the negotiating position.
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This is like the tax debate.
Eventually that 'popularity' has to translate into revenue.
Sure the could give away Java and it would be hugely popular. But "Hugely Popular" doesn't make them any money. 0% of infinity is still $0.
Currently Google is paying $0 for each java license. If Java just becomes "The android language" and they continue collecting $0 why should they care.
It's kind of like the people who try to use photos without the photographers permission. "Hey but you're getting free exposure." "Yo
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Currently Google is paying $0 for each java license. If Java just becomes "The android language" and they continue collecting $0 why should they care.
People keep parroting this crap because Oracle keeps regurgitating this crap. It doesn't exist. Google doesn't need a Java license because they don't use Java. Developers use the java compiler to compile java byte code. That's it. Period. Google is using freely available libraries, which are written in the java language. Oracle's own compiler compiles it and that license is extended by Oracle to all developers. Google isn't a player in the least. At this point, Google's own tools convert the Java byte code
Obligatory (Score:2)
Groklaw commentary [groklaw.net]
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Re:Obligatory (Score:5, Informative)
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This is what Google gets for using Java (Score:2, Insightful)
C++ is looking pretty good right about now.
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Yea because you know we have not seen any application security problems with any android app. Oh Wait.
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You know, for security reasons?
I know you ain't talkin' about Java!
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Wrong choice of words, garbage collection has no relevance to security
Taking memory disposal out of the hands of the programmer makes it far more practical to prevent programmers accessing memory through stale pointers (either accidentally or maliviously). Preventing programmers accessing memory through stale pointers is important for any environment that mixes code of different trust levels (think the java plugin in your browser) and also helps limit the damage programmer errors can cause.
Reference counting could be used instead of tracing GC but in typical GUI code the prog
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They would have been safer going with C# rather than Java. And it's better.
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You are probably a talented programmer, and I completely agree that C or C++ is the holy grail for low level optimization (if you are too noob for Assembly or Hex). I am personally fond of C++ and do not really "get" Java, although I do use it.
This may be obvious, but for many software it's a trade-off between development time, bugginess, manageability and speed, C++ is not always optimal.
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What I consider funny is that the whole premise of how .net was sold to dev shops.
No memory management to have to deal with, right? Not so, at least for VB.net. Declare a form? Have to call dispose on it.
The third party grid control set we use, we have to call dispose on many things created for those grids.
Why "dispose" is ok and "delete" is not seems to have come down to "you bought the tool, suck it up".
Yeah, I get that dispose is there to clean up other allocated resources, but the memory is not freed
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No memory management to have to deal with, right? Not so, at least for VB.net. Declare a form? Have to call dispose on it.
The third party grid control set we use, we have to call dispose on many things created for those grids.
It's basically the same problem java has. Tracing GC is tolerable for memory management but is no use for managing other resources that likely need to be freed up sooner.
And RAII handles all cases without having to have dispose like kludges tacked on.
Afaict RAII is nice for the simple stuff but it does have problems of it's own. Primerally how multiple references to the same resource and reference cycles are handled. Get this wrong and you can end up with stuff not being disposed of because a reference cycle keeps reference counts nonzero even after all external references are gone.
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So basically... (Score:2)
So basically Oracle thinks that Google is expecting to spend about 6.2 Billion dollars to pay it's lawyers and is hoping they see it would just be cheaper for them to license the technology from Oracle.
Please oh please let Google fight this and win. Not because I love Google, but because I hate Oracle.
Bad publicity (Score:2)
Re:something other than Java (Score:2)
What are the #3 4 5 languages? Aka count counting Java, not C++.
Let's say Google squashes this and everyone boycotts Oracle and Java. Anyone have thoughts on what the dark horse language is?
I keep hearing Python mentioned. Aside from the "whiter syntax" apparently it might let me write non-OO programs more like BASIC but more modern.
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Somebody needs a bigger boat (Score:2)
I guess Larry Ellison is needing some extra money to start building his next yacht.
Where's PJ when we need her? (Score:2)
It may be time for a Groklaw comeback...
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PJ is still backing the site, and keeping an eye on things, but Mark Webbink (from Red Hat's general counsel) is doing the the articles.. and seems to be as impartial as PJ, though not with the same humour (so far, at least).
The articles there go into details about Oracles claims and Googles counters.
I doubt... (Score:3)
Python for Android ... FTW! (Score:4, Insightful)
And I hear that Google has a lot of Python running in-house already. But if fewer CPU cycle per function performed is the goal for low power mobile devices, why not just plain old C?
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Simple - Google needed app developers to write for the platform, and phone app developers mostly speak Java. So Google came up with the Dalvik VM that can run recompiled Java code in a compatible environment.
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Looks like you're either mistaken or lived under a rock. Most mobile apps devs speak Objective-C now and it has been this way for quite some time.
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Oh, you mean like the lack of apps for iOS. Oh wait.
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Re:Python for Android ... FTW! (Score:4, Interesting)
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The limitations of compiled executables are becoming more apparent with today's diverse hardware. One generation of mobile device may not use the same instruction architecture (processor type) as the next generation of mobile device. And the other devices connected to the processor change frequently. A new executable would have to be compiled for every major variant of the device. With something like Java bytecode the program can be one-time optimised when the program is loaded onto the device, which is a g
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C gets far too little love
You're kidding, right? C is one of the most used languages, the second according to TIOBE (which is flawed, yes).
you pretty much have to implement everything in C (..) if you want to make it highly scalable.
That's so wrong I don't even know how to begin to tell you. Scalability has nothing to do with being fast per se, but with scaling linearly.
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Yeah seriously, I don't know why people even bother to learn languages that are 11 times as slow on fairly routine tasks.
Because I'm way more expensive than adding a second rackmount server. Because the few hundred thousand lines of Python in production in my company are either event-driven (waiting for web requests), IO bound (waiting on remote websites to answer), or scheduled (nightly batch processes). Because our "busy" server currently has a 15 minute load average of 0.13 and 99.2% free CPU. Tell me again why I'd want to write CPU-efficient code over programmer-efficient applications?
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Actually, Fortran gets far too little love. If anyone would bother to look at the more recent standards (say 95 and on) they would see that it does a heck of a lot (and very well too.) Unfortunately, people have been taught/told that it is either a) dead or b) evil.
I want some of those drugs (Score:2)
I dunno what Oracle's people are smoking, popping, or injecting, but I want some!
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I dunno what Oracle's people are smoking, popping, or injecting, but I want some!
From the squirrel-crazy behavior they've been displaying, it appears to be methamphetamine. That's bad stuff and you want to stay away from it.
I mean, just look at Ellison? Does he seem OK to you?
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Those must be dentures then!
They should not have used Java (Score:3)
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and people should have used what they pleased to develop under Xfce, Meego, Gnome, KDE, or some other relatively well established GUI.
Yes, and then Android on your phone could have been as successful as Linux on the desktop!
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The phones all have different processors (Score:2)
Where is the glue language that makes a single distributable work on all platforms?
As far as Java goes, they should have come up with their own implementation/compiler whatever that does not draw from anything but the syntax of the language. The syntax is open right? And bytecode is not a new idea so they could have rolled their own clean-room bytecode without straining anything.
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Yeah, it's the one thing that's putting me off Android. If they'd have gone for C# on the other hand....
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Google's idea with using Dalvik (and the Java language) was compile once, run on many devices. For the most part, if you stick to specs and not get to crazy with GUI and hardware, it kinda works... not as well as Google had planned... but it has made it easier for developers to target different many dissimilar phones without having to compile for each device...
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Yes, a very real and practical part of using Qt libraries. It would be a minor obstacle.
Oracle bought Sun for $7 billion (Score:3)
Looks like they want to make all their money back with this lawsuit. 'tis how they roll, I guess.
I see people saying Google should buy Oracle. Not gonna happen, of course. However, Google could buy the Java IP off them if they wanted. Surely, the valuation of Java's IP would be much smaller than the entire valuation of Sun (hw divisions and all), so it may actually come cheaper than fighting this out to the end.
On the other hand, that is probably what Oracle wants to happen. Tbh, I want to see Google fight this and rip Oracle apart in court, because Oracle are fucking asshats no matter how I look at this.
Follow the money... (Score:3, Interesting)
Java made money for Sun (now Oracle) on mobile phones, it was licensed for use there, Google did something clever (or maybe not so much) and released a phone/framework that used a previously accepted implementation of Java (heavyweight versus the 'efficient' phone version) and skirted the licensing issue altogether.
Now Oracle feels that Google owes them licensing for 'phone' java.
So what is Android, a phone with java? or a tiny linux system with a phone card?
I believe this is one reason Apple wants to distance themselves from java, its going to become a headache.
Beware "placed" articles (Score:5, Insightful)
Groklaw also identified this as FUD, also known as "trying the case in the newspapers".
--dave
Business Decision (Score:2)
... spend 6 billion to make Larry Ellison's head bigger
or ... spend 10 million to remove Larry Ellison's head
From a pure business standpoint the decision is obvious.
Ah (Score:3)
Will They sue themself next? (Score:2)
The company that has done the most damage to Java is Oracle. Will they sue themself next? It seems that Oracle is trying hard to destroy all assets they acquired from the Sun.
tax on bluster (Score:2)
If there was even a 1% tax on proposed settlement size, the amount of bluster in these figures would collapse by an order of magnitude.
Imagine if it cost $63m to file a claim in the court system for $6.3b in damages.
We all know Ellison is going to ask for $2b/inch whenever he can get away with it, if there's no price for grasping.
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http://golang.org/ [golang.org]
Linux is fine, Java is the problem. And they're working on a better language already.
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Developers developers developers.
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Child...
- Dan.
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Fuck Ellison. I hope he gets run over by a fucking bus.
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Ellison and B/P/S form two sides of the same coin, being corporations which have grown quickly and absurdly massive on the business of data gathering and mining. In the former case the link with government work was well-known; in the latter case it's met with cries of HURR CONSPIRACY THEORIST because we trust the government these days not to abuse any large repository of data and try really hard to ignore evidence.
But the individual people concerned are egomaniacal dicks, and that acts against their favour,
Re:Compensation for Java? (Score:5, Funny)
Offset by saving some of us from C++.
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Why can't oracle pay damages for inflicting itself upon the world?
Meanwhile, they haven't even gotten to the point of reduced claims in court, so this could be cut by 80, 90, 100% by the time the claims reach the court. Hell, this hasn't even gone to trial, and google has signaled clear intentions to defend themselves in this case.
Re:Compensation for Java? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you serious? Are you somehow implying that Oracle isn't in the right?
$6.1 billion in damages? Who the hell are they trying to fool? What did they lose out on: a sizable market share of free?
Oracle suffered no damages whatsoever; most of Java is licensed under the GPL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_%28programming_language%29) so even though Google has reimplemented a lot of the functions and basically created a Java clone, Oracle has suffered no damage because it is software they GIVE AWAY FOR FREE.
Now, before you jump on me and correct me by saying it's a patent issue, I understand the distinction. However they gave away the software under the GPL and the GPL stipulates that the software can only be distributed without being encumbered by patents, so either Oracle is right and thus is in violation of it's (Sun's) own terms for Java, and Java needs to stop being redistributed (not an entirely bad idea) or Oracle is in the wrong, and Google has done no wrong by reimplementing the Java language. In any event. Oracle is full of shit; they have suffered no damages whatsoever.
I know Oracle hates free and their RDBMS licensing fees are completely ridiculous (licensed per core x RAM - they don't care if it's a server or if you need a seat for a development or QA lab workstation they license it based on what a given CPU "could" theoretically handle) but they fucked up; if they hate free software they should not have purchased Sun in the first place. Sun's processors were "open source," their office suite was, they opened up most of Java, and the OSes they offered (Linux, and SunOS/Solaris was eventually opened as well), and so on.
Re:Compensation for Java? (Score:5, Informative)
Note the updates from Groklaw. (link to article) [groklaw.net]
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Hey maybe Oracle should be paying some of us damages for inflicting Java on the world. ;)
Java's not a bad language although the pace of development is glacial. No more so than on J2ME where Oracle / Sun did vastly more to damage the platform than any other company. J2ME was built for another age. It might still have application in PLC and lightbulb dimmers, but not in phones or set top boxes any more and I fail to see how Android "damaged" anything of theirs.
Companies were already deserting in droves before Android took off. If Oracle were smart they'd put all this shit behind them and try so
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