US Tech Firms Recruiting High Schoolers (And Younger) 253
ShaunC writes: Is there a glut of qualified American tech workers, or isn't there? Some companies like Facebook and Airbnb are now actively courting and recruiting high school students as young as 13 with promises of huge stipends and salaries. As one student put it, "It's kind of insane that you can make more than the U.S. average income in a summer." Another who attended a Facebook-sponsored trip said he'd "forego college for a full-time job" if it were offered. Is Silicon Valley taking advantage of naive young workers?
What is the use of school to Facebook? (Score:4, Insightful)
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What?
Not in the US. IQ tests are not uncommon here. There's a social stigma against using them, but there's nothing even close to a ban.
Re:What is the use of school to Facebook? (Score:4, Insightful)
IQ tests would pretty much fall under aptitude tests which under tort law seems to have been banned. It's also why a high school diplomas became necessary for trivial jobs- if someone had a high school diploma they met certain minimum job requirements. This also led to the schools becoming training camps for local employment opportunities also.
Employers used to give aptitude tests before everyone graduated high school or even before schools had real standards for a diploma. Eventually, these aptitude tests were applied to discriminate against people based on race or sex and so on and there were quite a few lawsuits over it that with employers losing. I believe the big one was Griggs v. Duke Power Co 1971 and there is a history after that including addressing a ruling in the 1991 civil rights act.
It's not specifically barred- but there is a high risk of being sued over their use- especially if the employment space is not diverse enough to "prove" they are unbiased (quotas).
we need A GED for college (Score:2)
http://articles.chicagotribune... [chicagotribune.com]
if they want to set a min level without the high cost of college and then they can take people from the teach / trades / learn on there own.
Re:What is the use of school to Facebook? (Score:5, Informative)
but there's nothing even close to a ban.
The Supreme Court of the United States [wikipedia.org] disagrees with you.
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Just as a search engine brand likes do deals with US government agencies directly...subcontractor like
Why not do do deals with US educational institutions directly...
You need lobbying, sales reps... partnerships with established contractors and end up with partnerships that range from a few thousand dollars to multiple millions.
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Which, though still flawed, are a vastly better way of measuring ability to reason than IQ tests and more difficult to game.
Raising your IQ is easy - just do a lot of IQ tests as practice. Raising your actual intelligence is a lot harder.
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and he has to use the proxy of SAT scores
Which, though still flawed, are a vastly better way of measuring ability to reason than IQ tests and more difficult to game.
Raising your IQ is easy - just do a lot of IQ tests as practice. Raising your actual intelligence is a lot harder.
Huh? The exact opposite is true. There's a reason why we have a vast industry devoted to coaching kids on the SAT -- it's a very easy test to coach, and there are ridiculous numbers of practice tests out there.
On the other hand, there are a number of different IQ tests, with very different forms and types of activities (from "culture-free" abstract tests like Raven's progressive matrices to stuff that looks like old SAT tests with a lot of abstract verbal things like analogies and antonyms and such).
T
Cultural confusion (Score:2)
So I'd better update my statement to make things more clear.
Raising your score in a single type of test is easy - just do a lot of that sort of test as practice. Raising your actual intelligence is a lot harder.
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So why does facebook look like it was designed by people with average or lower IQs?
There are schools much cheaper than the Ivy Leagues with an equivalent education and that's where I'd expect smart kids to go.
As for quitting school to get an above average salary, that's just stupid. That salary is not for life, and that salary is not even competitive for professional programmers in the region. The reason they're hiring high school kids instead of professionals is because the kids are cheap (and because Zu
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There are schools much cheaper than the Ivy Leagues with an equivalent education and that's where I'd expect smart kids to go.
At Ivy League, you're not paying for the education. You're paying for networking. And for making an impression at HR types who don't care about education, but reputation.
After all, one of those degrees is the best university degree that money can buy.
As for quitting school to get an above average salary, that's just stupid. That salary is not for life, [...]
But job experience is. And from a certain point on, you will get hired for that. Though you're learning a lot of basic stuff for your formal degree that WILL be actually helpfull and a degree is a ticket into your first few jobs. And it's something that can't b
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So, put high IQ society membership on resume? Probably would turn off some people, but it sounds like Zuckerberg would like it.
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This is too hilarious. Explains a lot, though.
"Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.
Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average
actors and athletes get paid at 13 (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:actors and athletes get paid at 13 (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, but 13yo actors and athletes need special work permits and still need to attend to school whilst working.
In many localities, they must have part of their earnings put directly into trust funds (e.g., a Coogan account in California) so neither they or their parents will blow all the money on something, or up something...
Also, when the sums of money are large enough, many reputable employers require profession agent representation (so they don't claim to have been taken advantage of and sue later).
I doubt any of these internet companies are doing any of these even minimal best-practices/policies for these 13yo nerds (and these minimal things don't even prevent the Lindsey Lohans and Tracy Austins of the world)...
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These are summer internships; school is not an issue.
Four states, but the Coogan requirements in California and New York at least are specific to child performers, not all minors.
Once upon a time in America... (Score:2)
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yes they did for a VERY VERY BRIEF PERIOD, pre WWII little billy went to the saw mill before school and on weekends to earn the family a couple bucks, your dream like state of euphoria in suburbia only happened for a few decades, every other year recorded in history childeren worked to help support the family.
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The problem with standardized testing is that teachers are rote teaching the material that is relevant only to the test. Creativity and curiosity are pushed aside, preventing children from loving to learn. If children don't love learning, they won't enjoy learning new things as an adult. We live in a society where you can never stop learning.
As a computer technician, I run into too many technical people who hate learning new things even though they are in a field where learning new things is mandatory. Thes
Employers used to train people now they want schoo (Score:2)
Employers used to train people now they want schools that are not setup to do that kind of learning to teach skills that should be in a tech / trade school. But they don't like them to much and they can't use the people loaded with skill gaps coming out of some non tech schools.
Re:Employers used to train people now they want sc (Score:4, Insightful)
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That sounds like people who followed the money - the same problem that turned a "woman's profession" of sitting inside and typing into what's close to a boy's only club and an industry with a high turnover and short attention span. I got away from that problem by working with scientists instead of a bunch of "programmers" that were scared of 64bit, multithreading, and anyt
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Yes (Score:2)
What, did you think Google was putting tens of millions into IT education for philanthropic purposes?
Aaaahahahahaha! Hahahahaha!
ahh
sigh
Haaaaaaahahahaha! ...yeah they're planning to strip mine up and coming generations.
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nothing wrong with that, most the population finds good jobs are very hard to come by. The real unemployment rate in the USA (using system bls used in the 1980s is almost 25%, Depression level. A corporate droid job is better than no job
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Oh get fucked asshole, this isn't about playing fair and providing jobs, its about corporate profits: http://pando.com/2014/03/22/re... [pando.com]
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Grow up, nothing is fair in this world. Of course employers make a profit if they are to survive. People work for money, the employer makes a profit on their work. that's how making a living works. that's how businesss works.
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the federal government does even worse things than that fortune 500 company. and they have their massive layoffs too.
but federal government job better than no job. world isnt good and it's not fair
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I suspect it's more complicated than your sanctimonious sermon implies.
For IT jobs HS + on the job / trade / tech / CC is (Score:2)
For IT jobs HS + on the job and or with an trade / tech / CC is all that should be needed.
Yep, all you should need (Score:3)
Don't like it? Form a Union and get organized or get another line of work.
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Not all tech guys want to be in management and there are people who not cut out for it and end up being peters.
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I did not say just HS.
I said HS + mix of community college classes / tech schools / trade school / learning skills on the job.
For some people the full college setting is to much up front and or loaded with skill gaps.
but the issues with some of the college system is that the time tables do not fit in that well with working pros. The tech schools / trade schools / community colleges do fit in better.
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Actually, experience with managing the system itself gives insight into how it could be managed better. Managerial types use a lot of verbose garbage to cover up their histrionic narcissism, like you've done here, to justify that feelings and consensus matter more than the facts and the truth. It's ok to defend group work and such, but when the ideology becomes more important than reality, you end up with a chernobyl.
When you cannot poach (Score:3)
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...Facebook Campus tour guide enters the room: "and this is where we harvest our future employees" ...robots whirl around and push nutrients into sacs.
Tech / IT needs an apprenticeship system that (Score:2)
Tech / IT needs an apprenticeship system that can tech real skills, have on the job / hands on learning / and at least some oversight.
I want voters to go to college (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a training side to education and there's a wisdom side to education, and they're both important in the long run. Telling young people to get jobs right out of high school because being well-rounded isn't necessary for "smart" people just means it's going to be a crap shoot as to whether their decisions repeat history or learn from it.
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If your high schools are including courses that your college accepts for credit, then BOTH institutions are failing students! (aka; that is, today aka "customers")
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Depends on your definition of 'rounded'. College campuses have their own shitty political and social biases too.
It depends on how it is done (Score:2)
I mean it's obviously foolish to not get some proper education, and at companies you typically only learn how not to do it. A formal education can bring you the inspiration and time to become a decent programmer.
However, currently there is the rare chance of a second ".com"-bubble. Companies are hiring just about anybody and paying them insane amounts of money. It's like in that old documentary I've seen about Netscape where they all thought they'd be great... but if you look at the actual product you'll fi
Cynical attempt to lower tech wages (Score:3)
Tech companies want to make sure the Zuckerbergs make a gazillion dollars, but tech wages get driven down. 501(C) organization like FWD.us are all about getting "immigration reform" which includes a lot more H1B, which means you distort the intellectual capital market by bringing in more workers and thus driving down pay. Why pay money to an american with school loans when you can lobby government to get someone who can work for less as an H1B serf.
Paying kids is a new twist on this game. So, why even pay people who have careers, lets pay our employees even less by hiring children?
It is a race to the bottom, and make no mistake, it is so the rich can get richer. I don't want to sound like an "occupy wall street" loony, but don't workers deserve reward for their work just as much as industrialists. 40 years ago, CEOs only made a few hundred times more than their average employee, and that was scandalous.
These guys complain about the "economy," but that facts are clear, the U.S. economy was better when we had more wealth distribution, stronger unions, and a growing middle class. They want us to be China, and unless we figure out how to stop it, we will be.
Re:Not new (Score:5, Insightful)
Short term. But when he tried to change jobs, he'd find a lot of opportunities closed to him because just about every company wants a degree. I've known a number of non-degreed programmers who have gone back to get one for that reason.
Quitting school to found a startup might make sense; at least it's honest gambling. Quitting school to take a regular job doesn't; the job or one like it will still be there when you graduate.
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Some companies only look for people with MSc's or a PhD, but then there are those companies which only consider those with higher qualifications for non-programming jobs. So it's something to think about if you consider doing a MSc as as "refresher" to learn new skills when the job market is tight.
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Some companies only look for people with MSc's or a PhD...
I love companies like that! They give me a lot of consulting work when the ivory tower hits the real world.
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The job or one like it may still be there when you graduate, but the pay may well stagnate (or decrease) in that 4+ years, the position may have become a contract position with no benefits, and you may not be able to get an interview by then, because they are only targeting people just starting school, (since kids will work more hours for less). Oh, and in 4 years you may have student loans to pay back, so what seems like a lot of money now will now barely provide you any disposable income by then, with whi
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What the really smart nerd will do today is find a paid internship, while still attending school, doing something that builds hireable skills.
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Only plenty of facebook like companies will be more than happy to fund the kid's education while he works for them, so if the kid wants the degree, it's kind of a win win.
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I moved and couldn't find a good job in the new town, so I went back to school because it seemed like a good idea.
Re:Not new (Score:5, Informative)
But equivalent work experience is a lot longer. I might believe that someone with no degree and a decade plus of experience is as good as someone with a degree and 3-4 years, but he'd have to prove it. I find almost nobody without at least 3 years of college has a decent grasp of the fundamentals of computer science- data structures, algorithms, critical thinking and design. The people without degrees tend to just know how to google for answers and copy the results, and god forbid you change frameworks or languages on them- they're hopeless. Its to the point that no degree and less than 6 or 7 years of experience isn't going to get an interview over a guy right out of college because the odds favor the college grad having a higher ceiling.
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Google and the internet in general is fantastic resource and denigrating those who take advantage of those resources is silly. And college may be heavy on the theory behind computer science concepts it does not put much effort into teaching the intricacies and pros and cons of the various frameworks floating around today. It is also pretty easy to tailor interview questions to get a good understanding of the applicants skillset and knowledge. Judging someone's programming skills is a lot easier than gauging
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A good example on this site was a programmer asserting that "single bit operations are faster" presumably due to him bypassing all the boring stuff about hardware and clock cycles that many others here learnt in high school
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Ya, but .NET is a job for life! It's different this time!
Re:Not new (Score:4, Interesting)
I've been doing technical interviews for 15 years. And any day of the week I'd take someone with a degree over someone with 5 or 6 years more experience without one. Oh, I'll miss a few good hires that way, but I'll miss out on more bad ones. And that's what far more important- its better to miss making a good hire than make a bad one. In those 15 years I have seen perhaps 4 people without a degree have even a basic knowledge of the fundamentals of the craft-- and 2 of those I'm thinking of dropped out their senior year of college for medical or family reasons. The rest have all been language of the week cruft who I wouldn't hire to write webpages. I won't even interview them anymore- too many have failed, the small percentage of useful hires you'd find aren't worth the time.
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Yes, you can easily spot the difference between someone who skipped college for economic, health, or family reasons versus the person who skipped college because they felt it wasted their time.
For one thing, if someone's got a solid work ethic, likes to buckle down and get the job done, takes pride in their work, then how does that coexist with the attitude that college isn't worth the effort? If they think college is stupid, does that mean they secretly think their current job is stupid?
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I highly doubt most employers think that way. Otherwise why "overqualification" still exists? By your logic someone with CS master degree with 1-2 years of experience should trump a fresh college grad. In the real world that is most likely NOT the case.
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They don't trump the fresh college grad, however over time they pull ahead with salary and position. I had an MS and 3 years experience, but since I did not go straight from MS degree into work force (I tried to get PhD first) I had to start over from scratch essentially. But after a few years it caught up.
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Simple. By the time they graduate highschool, they're tired of proving they can write book reports, handle 4 function math, and write code. Another 4 years of that shit at 50k of debt? fuck that. I suppose a degree matters if your requirements include some pretty obscure or complex mathematics, but otherwise, if the applicant shows his resume of well written code to you, why would you give a shit about whether he went to college or not?
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College is no more expensive, taking inflation into account, than it was 30 years ago. You can get the education cheaper than that; use a state college or university, get a part time job instead of all debt, get used books or borrow a friend's, etc.
Well written code is fine for entry level job. Well written code doesn't go far if the job requirements want more than that, can the person read the schematics, can they do the math, can they understand what everyone else is talking about, can they lead the tea
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The theory lasts for a lifetime, the framework only lasts until the next fad comes out. I've found over time that those who are self taught often have the most trouble adapting to the changing job requirements whereas those with the education (even if it's not in CS) are more adaptable. The biggest problem with most of the self taught people I've met is that they avoid learning the boring stuff.
Granted, college plus experience is great, but experience without college is a handicap. Now that doesn't mean
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Pretty easy to do when college costs 50k.
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I suspect too many programmers these days don't really do much programming, instead they just know how to use the libraries and frameworks without having even the first clue about how to write their own libraries and frameworks (or compilers or operating systems or drivers or even an algorithm that doesn't suck). Most programmers basically just treat the job as a job with no passion for it. I see these people in job interviews and they stand out for having a resume with lots of experience but flailing dur
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Umm, Einstein wasn't bad at math. Apparently you're bad at history though.
http://content.time.com/time/s... [time.com]
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First, quite a lot of colleges and universities DO provide a good education, and even a bad college gives a good education if the student works for it.
Second, that degree gives you a huge leg up on people without a degree. Even someone with an English degree doing computer programming will probably earn more money over a lifetime than the person without a degree doing computer programming. Maybe it's not fair but that's how it works in real life. Eventually someone notices the person has no degree and de
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That's because of the false assumption that a degree automatically makes your skills more applicable. College today is papermill bullshit.
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Most companies want degrees OR equivalent work experience. I went back to school as a 23 year old and quit soon after because I got tired of professors telling me things that I had taught myself years earlier as part of my job.
Varies with the discipline. I returned to school to study history after some years of political organizing and found value in professors' teaching of historiography that I never would have gained from years of reading history. After ten years of working as a software engineer I started a masters in computer science and found professors were woefully behind the industry. YMMV.
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Most companies want degrees OR equivalent work experience.
Most, maybe. But there are a substantial number that do demand a degree, and the non-degreed will always have at least a small handicap, because given two otherwise equivalent candidates, the one with the degree is likely to get the job, and after 10 years or so the extra four years of experience aren't going to mean as much as the formal education.
In addition, if at some point in your career you want to move into another career track the degree may well become even more important -- though the choice of
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What companies and what jobs? Are you talking IT support desk drone, or actual engineers designing top end software (not web pages) on top end hardware, able to read schematics and understand the physics or mechanics of the products they're building?
I have known several people with great work experience and great skills and great work ethic who hit the wall because they didn't have the degree.
Re:Not new (Score:5, Insightful)
For every 1999 there's a 2001. Jobs like that tend to get either very competitive or just abandoned when the market contracts. Or they just replace you with some other youngin', since that seems to be the way that job segment is working.
Calculus + coding = Job for life, it's a combo that works really well and it's a market where age adds, rather than subtracts, value.
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Coding + something else = a huge boost over coding alone. That something else can be math, physics, EE, business, whatever.
Re:Not new (Score:4, Interesting)
I guess I don't agree. School is for the young and unattached, it is not an easy thing to go back to at some later date. I'm not saying that no one can do so, I'm saying that no one I know has done so, but continue to either wish they had, or try to make it work but can't find the time between a day job to keep the mortgage paid and kids fed, and the vicious hours studying and doing homework.
I would make the opposite argument: there are always jobs and they always pay money. Unless you're talking about an opportunity with such a high compensation that you can afford to not work for 5 years and pay for school, it's a bad decision for most people. There are cases where it does make sense, but they seem to be the exception. Taking a wage slave job at FB versus going to school seems like a really bad gamble.
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In 1999, my company offered an 18 year old summer intern a programming job. He turned us down to attend college. Spending 4 years doing calculus and reading The Count of Monte Cristo was not going to improve his earnings potential. Spending 4 years in a real office doing real programming would have improved his earnings potential.
Keep telling yourself that.
An 18 year old is not going to enjoy spending his entire day with fat middle-aged office drones. He would rather go to college, party, make friends and score with other 18 year old girls.
He can always go back to a programming job anytime he wants.
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When I was 20 and 21, I worked with adults in an office all day. Then on weekends I would drive down to the big college where all my friends went and partied my ass off. I spent thousands buying alcohol for all of my broke college friends, and I would do it all again.
college does not tech the right skills needed to d (Score:2)
college does not tech the right skills needed to do jobs now days. We need to have alts that take less time and give people skills that they need.
Re:Not new (Score:5, Funny)
Oh yes, definitely, very not new...
During the Industrial Revolution, factory owners were declaring that it was a waste of time for children to be going to school when they could better be spent making money mining for coal or scrubbing pots in factories. Why waste their time learning when clearly a child's life is better spent earning profits?
So...
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Actually, some supported schools quite a bit. Schools trained their employees. Factories had a problem with farm kids just wondering off and doing other things like they would on the farm. This was a big set back for industrialization so schools were opened in order to teach the children how to pay attention, follow direction, add and subtract and so on to be ready for the factories.
Perhaps after they were "trained", they decried their further education but initially, it was for their benefit for the most p
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Oh yes, definitely, very not new...
During the Industrial Revolution, factory owners were declaring that it was a waste of time for children to be going to school when they could better be spent making money mining for coal or scrubbing pots in factories. Why waste their time learning when clearly a child's life is better spent earning profits?
So...
Unfortunately there is a reality to this. During the industrial revolution, children worked all week and the the factories complained that they were not available at 7am for work on Sundays. Parish leaders said that this is when they were to attend church, so the factories suggested that the church services be conducted at 4am so that the children were still available for work at 7am.
The second is the reality of why unions were formed. Child workers were preferred over adult workers because their small bod
What about their next job? (Score:4, Insightful)
It may not have changed his earning potential, but it greatly improves his opportunities if your company lays him off, goes bust, or just sucks. Having a degree on your resume is often needed just to get past the HR filter. I've met several folks who did very well despite their lack of degrees, and all want their kids to get one. You have to really sell yourself and rely on luck much more to get that next good job if you do not have a degree.
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I might've done the same. You only get to be young, dumb, and full of cum once (and mean it). Life is more than "earnings potential," you know.
Cog or crafter? Low potential or high? (Score:2)
It's the technician versus engineer argument. You only actually need an engineer (or a very experienced technician with a wide range) when you want to change things, such as solve a problem or do something new. So in t
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Bullshit. A college degree gives you improved lifetime earnings. Not having that degree will cause someone to hit the ceiling hard. Sure, maybe your company wanted that person, but that's not typical. 4 years of calculus already puts that person far ahead of the average dumb programmer.
And maybe that student didn't want to be a programmer? Maybe he didn't want to work for your company? Maybe he actually still had dreams about the future.
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More likely "education" doesn't understand reality.
That being said, a good degree from a good course/school will teach you a lot of fundamentals that a job won't. That'll give you decades of work rather than the quick-dirty-burnout single job from no education.
education also has to much theory and non codeing (Score:2)
education also has to much theory and non coding jobs really don't need years of CS with big skill gaps.
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The theory is important. I use the skills I learned while learning theory on the job. Sometimes I even use it on the job. Lots of stuff clumped together with theory ends up in use on the job. Try writing your own networking mac/phy layer without knowing the theory, or working on embedded systems without understand concurrency, and if you don't know number theory you may hit some speedbumps with floating point number format someday. If you don't know algorithm theory you may have some of the worst perfo
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You think education can only be gained by paying $20,000+ per year to a university?
"You dropped 150 grand on a fuckin' education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library"
-Will Hunting
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We need some kind of badges system for education that can fit into stuff that the older education is a poor fit for.
Out site of the USA the cost of university is much lower and then have alt's for people who are a better fit in trades like learning
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I am taking piano and jazz theory lessons for $50/hour. It's entirely tailored to my learning wants, time budget, and abilities, costs a fraction of the equivalent in credit hours. So what if I don't get "a degree"? I already know more about what I want to know than most BAs, and I work with my teacher to be certain we're rounding out the overall curriculum so I'm not too deep and narrow. 6 years, estimate about 45 hal
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if they're paying highschool kids the average yearly income in a summer then the kids are taking advantage of facebook quite frankly.
I saw this stuff happening with Nokia back in the later half of the '90s. they would hire _everyone_. literally everyone off from the yearly roster at technical university. they would literally hire highschool students for summer gigs for coding.
then they had too much people a few years afterwards and spent over a decade of getting rid of the people while being consumed by int
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And once the kids are old enough to no longer fall under their parent's health insurance plan, then start demanding more money so that they can move out of the parent's house, you can fire them! Hurray, 18 year olds as high school freshmen!
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"they work for peanuts, literally"
By 'E. Indian' did you mean 'Elephants (Indian)'?
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Yeah, that's why today's software is so well designed...oh wait. Cheaper is not always better.
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it's as if they found a way to create American H1-B's...
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I just think Zuckerberg is lonely with no one his age to play with at Facebook.