Oracle Begins Aggressively Pursuing Java Licensing Fees (theregister.co.uk) 295
Java SE is free, but Java SE Suite and various flavors of Java SE Advanced are not, and now Oracle "is massively ramping up audits of Java customers it claims are in breach of its licenses," reports the Register.
Oracle bought Java with Sun Microsystems in 2010 but only now is its License Management Services division chasing down people for payment, we are told by people familiar with the matter. The database giant is understood to have hired 20 individuals globally this year, whose sole job is the pursuit of businesses in breach of their Java licenses... Huge sums of money are at stake, with customers on the hook for multiple tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Slashdot reader rsilvergun writes, "Oracle had previously sued Google for the use of Java in Android but had lost that case. While that case is being appealed, it remains to be seen if the latest push to monetize Java is a response to that loss or part of a broader strategy on Oracle's part." The Register interviewed the head of an independent license management service who says Oracle's even targeting its own partners now.
But after acquiring Sun in 2010, why did Oracle's License Management Services wait a full six years? "It is believed to have taken that long for LMS to devise audit methodologies and to build a detailed knowledge of customers' Java estates on which to proceed."
Slashdot reader rsilvergun writes, "Oracle had previously sued Google for the use of Java in Android but had lost that case. While that case is being appealed, it remains to be seen if the latest push to monetize Java is a response to that loss or part of a broader strategy on Oracle's part." The Register interviewed the head of an independent license management service who says Oracle's even targeting its own partners now.
But after acquiring Sun in 2010, why did Oracle's License Management Services wait a full six years? "It is believed to have taken that long for LMS to devise audit methodologies and to build a detailed knowledge of customers' Java estates on which to proceed."
Oracle (Score:5, Funny)
Larry Ellison is the greediest man on earth and Oracle is his prophet.
Re:Oracle (Score:5, Funny)
Larry Ellison is the greediest man on earth and Oracle is his prophet.
Many believe that Larry is a Sith Lord. If he is indeed a Sith Master, then who is his apprentice?
Re:Oracle (Score:5, Funny)
The clue is in the question.
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I don't get the joke. Could you please explain it?
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Larry is not just a Dem, but an ex leader of the Democrat Leadership Council in 1992 which saw in the Clintons. He has nothing in common w/ Trump or the GOP. If anything, he's probably in bed w/ Sacramento Dems
Not so fast. Trump himself was a Democrat from August 2001 to September 2009, eight years.
Being a self-interested opportunist of no fixed allegiance makes Ellison nearly a Trump clone (except, more competent business-wise).
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Ellison isn't anything magical or mystical.
It's a mistake to give what he is that kind of an aura.
Overall story: Java is dead. (Score:5, Insightful)
Java will die at a speed limited the by ability of large corporations to move away from using it.
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Java will die at a speed limited the by ability of large corporations to move away from using it.
This is hugely accurate.
It will probably stick around for a while in small shops, but any large corp that gets a bill will ditch Java in favor of the bottom line.
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Ditch java in favor of what? The body shops will need some re-training time to converge all their marginal resources into the new tech so they're ready to feed at the corporate trough.
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Why? Why would anyone be stupid enough to do that? It has every potential to turn into a case of "out of the fire into the frying pan".
Microsoft is not one bit more trustworthy than Oracle.
Re:C# here we come! (Score:5, Informative)
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I understand the C# has some advantages over Java, but as I don't use either this is just second- or third-hand information. I really *should* investigate C# more thoroughly, but it's my expectation that it's not any better than Java, and Java isn't a viable choice for various reasons, but the main one is the piss-poor handling of unicode strings. I could understand utf-8 or utf-32, but utf-16 is a garbage choice made for historical reasons.
This article give me yet another reason to avoid Java.
Contest? Who can be the most abusive? (Score:2)
From a Network World article: Windows 10 is possibly the worst spyware ever made. [networkworld.com] Quote: "Buried in the service agreement is permission to poke through everything on your PC."
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No because C# needs to die.
You may not like it, but C++ and C are what interfaces directly to your hardware.
Android created a generation of Java programmers (Score:2)
Most computing devices sold in the last few years run Android, and are therefore programmed primarily in Java. As a result we now have a whole new generation of programmers raised on Java.
One can certainly make the argument that Java SHOULD die, but half of young programmers are below average and therefore would have difficulty switching to a new language built around a different paradigm. They'll stick to Java.
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Half of all programmers are below average. It's a statistical tautology and meaningless.
Not quite meaningless, it implies that the average as the same as the mean. BTW, isn't "meaningless tautology" a superfluous redundancy?
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BTW, isn't "meaningless tautology" a superfluous redundancy?
Well played, sir.
Good example (Score:2)
Let me be a bit more explicit, since you had trouble understanding the more diplomatic language:
There are 3 million Java programmers who aren't that bright. They won't be able to easily switch to a completely different way of doing things.
Speaking of the fact that many people aren't that bright and have trouble understanding new things ...
Excellent example of a self-refuting post (Score:2)
That's a very concise way to refute your points. Your appear to be indicating that:
a) Millennials are highly competent, at least at at programming / mathematical type tasks.
b) You take personal offense at anything you perceive as a criticism of "millennials".
c) Half of younger people, and most older peopler (more than half of all people) are below average.
Points (a) and (b) strongly suggest that you *are* a millennial, point (c) demonstrates you are incapable of understanding fourth grade arithmetic.
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How is this insightful? Oracle is not the end all be all of java.
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Oracle is not the end all be all of java.
No, it's the troll under the bridge.
Re:Oracle (Score:5, Informative)
From TFA:
"Java SE Suite, for example, costs $300 per named user with a support bill of $66; there’s a per-processor option of $15,000 with a $3,300 support bill."
It has long been a standard practice with Oracle that they won't even sell you any of their 'Enterprise' products unless you also pay them for 'support' (i.e., their products are shit and after you buy them you have pay extra if you want them to actually work)
A while back, someone analyzed Oracle's financial reports and found that their licensing division, which also handles the support contracts, is responsible for nearly all of Oracle's profits.
Larry must want to buy a new island.
Re: Oracle (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember when I was working in a large bank that went thru a merger of equals many years back.
The other bank is a Sybase shop with "enterprise" licensing based on total staff numbers.
Within a week of the merger, Sybase came knocking claiming that the bank now owes them USD 50 million because total staff numbers have basically more than doubled due to the merger.
To put that in perspective it was a few times larger than the then largest contract which was with Microsoft involving every windows desktop, laptop, windows server, office and other Microsoft stuff.
The CIO was so pissed that he had to spend all his time negotiating a new contract for the first month of the merger instead of actually planning the technology integration.
Naturally he ordered the bank to completely get rid of Sybase within 3 years. After 3 years, Sybase was almost completely gone except for a few trading systems that had major problems and risks moving.
Interestingly most of the DBs was switched to Oracle.
Anyway you screw with your customers enough, they will get rid of you. Even big banks which are dinosaurs when it comes to technology change will not be held ransom.
Re:Oracle (Score:4, Insightful)
Sun created Java because they wanted to boost hardware (SPARC systems) sales
More specifically, Sun needed a way to pry Microsoft customers away from Visual C++, hence the "run anywhere" claim. To some extent Sun's strategy worked, but most of those former Microsoft users went to PC/Linux servers rather than Sun.
Why Sun created Java (Score:3)
Actually, Sun originally aimed to create an entire ecosystem of a platform from Java. It included modifications to C++ as a language, including virtual machines to solve the issue of cross-platform portability, and even a (short lived) CPU platform that would have used bytecode as the instruction set.
The reason most of the users went to PC/Linux platforms was that you had Linux that was a common factor to both x86 and SPARC, and you not only had lower prices for the former, but it also had a wide range o
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If my local supermarket offers a free croissant to anyone who walks in the door, hoping that once they're there they'll buy something else, the croissant isn't technically free?
Re:Oracle (Score:5, Funny)
[isn't] the croissant technically free?
Depends if the supermarket locks the door behind you after you enter. Yes, the croissant is free. YOU, however ....
Re:Oracle (Score:4, Insightful)
False. Java was originally created as embedding controller language originally for interactive television. When it was released in 1995 it was released as a platform independent language, not SPARC specific.
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Java was originally created as embedding controller language originally for interactive television.
And Java is the worst thing [avianbonesyndrome.com] about Blu-ray.
Oracle JAVA is not that much. (Score:3)
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The database is just that a data store not the application.
Oracle also sells an enterprise application suite and they are the most gawdawfully unusable, clumsy, slow applications I have ever had the misfortune to be subjected to. Oracle application superpower: throwing away user's data part way through an unbelievably tortuous chain of slow loading screens.
It's nice that Oracle and I agree (Score:5, Funny)
I never thought I would be on the same side as them.
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According to most developers who know both C# and Java, C# is the better one.
The only problem is that only Windows get first-class support.
Re:It's nice that Oracle and I agree (Score:5, Interesting)
According to most developers who know both C# and Java, C# is the better one.
That's like saying you prefer drinking the water from the Pacific ocean over water from the Atlantic ocean. For th emost part, both languages are the same......enough so that you can accidentally be looking at one and think you are looking at the other.
C# programmers will say they prefer C# over Java, and the reasons they give are usually syntax-sugar related. Properties are kind of cool, I agree, but that misses the point of the purpose of Java:
Java exists to make things very simple, so that even incompetent programmers can work in it without messing things up too badly. By adding extra features, although they are fun features, C# messes that up, allowing programmers to do really stupid things. That's not the worst insult I have for C# programmers, but I ought to keep it polite.
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nonsense, the standard java EE libraries absurdly over-complicate simple tasks, java libraries are not for the 99% use case
Re:It's nice that Oracle and I agree (Score:5, Insightful)
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During that time Java user get sue and now fine. I don't think we can say both C# and Java are the same at all.
Java and C# are protected by the same kinds of licenses, so you're deluded if you think the kinds of things happening to Java users can't happen to you.
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Java and C# are protected by the same kinds of licenses, so you're deluded if you think the kinds of things happening to Java users can't happen to you.
Can you cite those licenses? I don't believe Java is protected by anything akin to Microsoft's legally-binding Community/Open Specification Promises (covenant not to sue), hence the Oracle V Google litigation.
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I don't believe Java is protected by anything akin to Microsoft's legally-binding Community/Open Specification Promises (covenant not to sue)
Check it [oracle.com]
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I don't believe Java is protected by anything akin to Microsoft's legally-binding Community/Open Specification Promises (covenant not to sue)
Check it [oracle.com]
That's the license for the JDK and isn't a covenant not to sue.
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You're better off with the license, legally speaking, than some vague 'promise.' Note also, if you read the actual 'covenant not to sue', it has loopholes. They can still sue you, or they can change the terms at any time.
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Worth mentioning that if Java dies, the thing that will replace it will be C#. So pick your poison.
Never thought I'd say this, but leaning towards C# to fill the role of training wheels for the internet and fountainhead of crappy applications. The devil we don't know, you see. Or do we?
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but leaning towards C# to fill the role of training wheels for the internet and fountainhead of crappy applications.
Why, specifically? I've done both, I can give you advice, maybe.
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but leaning towards C# to fill the role of training wheels for the internet and fountainhead of crappy applications.
Why, specifically? I've done both, I can give you advice, maybe.
Demonstrated legal minefield for Java, in the form of troll Ellison.
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anything that Oracle is doing now is something that Microsoft's buyer might do in the future.
Seems like a pretty far-fetched theory to me.
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It doesn't have to be a buyer, Microsoft could just get a new CEO.
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It doesn't have to be a buyer, Microsoft could just get a new CEO.
No. You have no idea what you are talking about. Microsoft's "promise" carries considerable legal weight and cannot be undone by a new CEO on a whim. There may indeed be questions to ask about the coverage and durability of Microsoft's promises, but such questions lie well beyond your limited comprehension of the situation.
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No. You have no idea what you are talking about. Microsoft's "promise" carries considerable legal weight and cannot be undone by a new CEO on a whim.
What legal cases have addressed this question before? The real truth is you have no clue what you are talking about, because 'promises' not to sue are paper thin.
A good lawyer can always find a way around 'promises'.
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Sun never offerred Java users any protection
Yes they did [oracle.com].
At which point do you need to pay for Java? (Score:2)
I honestly don't know. At which point do you need to pay for Java?
Is it you need to buy a licence to write code in Java? Run the code you've written? Distribute your Java code to others?
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I guess if its after oracle, you'll already have to pay them if you are asking these questions on slashdot.
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It wasn't me, my cat walked across my keyboard!
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I honestly don't know. At which point do you need to pay for Java?
You don't need to pay for Java. Java is open source, and there's some question of whether a language is even copyrightable at all.
You have to pay Oracle if you start using J2EE, or other proprietary libraries. This is the same as it's been for a long time now.
Re:At which point do you need to pay for Java? (Score:5, Informative)
JEE is not proprietary. JEE is a (dead-end) standard for which multiple open source and proprietary implementations exists, both free to use (with paid commercial support) and fully paid.
What the article is about is about Java SE (Standard Edition) Suite and Advanced. This is apparently just Java SE with some additional (non-gratis) tools.
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You have to pay if you need to use this flag...
-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures
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Java: Write once, run anywhere.
Pay everywhere.
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Long-time java developer here. I had to search myself as TFA is incredibly vague and the focus seems to be more on generating some sensationalist FUD.
To me it seems you're in the clear if you use the "standard" java stack for reading/running software such as jre, jdk, java ee,....
I think Oracle is only ramping up license inspection for clearly marked pay-for products such as http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaseproducts/overview/java-advanced-getstarted-2249239.html (java desktop, never heard of it)
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If your software contains this commandline argument you have to pay Oracle:
-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures
Or if you use something else than the standard edition of Java (i.e. the one for PCs).
Stick to OpenJDK builds and you should be safe.
Dealing with Oracle is risky (Score:3, Interesting)
I have seen them try to claim license fees for trivial things within my own company. It cost them in the long run, since IT abandoned their software in short order, due to this vindictive approach.
The crazy API copyright case made Java a non-starter for any new projects, since they effectively want to contaminate third party code bases with their copyright, if you use any Oracle APIs, making it impossible to port/wrap Oracle designed interfaces. It was something our legal people couldn't countenance, resulting in a Java ban. Not a good way to run your business.
I don't see Oracle having any long term future. Nobody would make a new deployment of any of their products. The Oracle database is still a good product, but for most workloads, open source or commercial alternatives are cheaper/faster. In my opinion Oracle is still a better all round product than nearly all the alternatives. That's not enough any more though. The prohibitive costs, poor support, threats, and contempt for customers are insurmountable barriers. Like Sun, I think Oracle will vanish in the long run.
Re:Dealing with Oracle is risky (Score:5, Funny)
Once the lawsuits were over and SCO was finally unplugged from the life support lawyers, Darl McBride was leaving the courthouse. Ironically, he slipped on a banana peel on the courthouse steps, and as he fell, he dropped the mantle of 'Litigious Bastards'. Larry was walking by, picked it up, and tried it on. It was still warm and comfy! So he brought it back home, had the tailors in the licensing department do some alterations, and now he's going to put it on as everyday wear, just like Zuckerberg and his hoodies.
"And that, my children, is how the Ghost of Larry Ellison came to haunt the valley. Now, off to bed with you all!"
OpenJDK (Score:2)
What's wrong with OpenJDK?
Bait and switch? (Score:2)
So, as the article states, the Java SE downloadable comes with the JDK and JRE which are free to use "for general purpose computing", but the one of the key issues is that additional components such as Java SE Advanced Desktop, Java SE Advanced and Java SE Suite are also included in the same software package, but are not free to use without a license. While there is an EULA, there is nothing to warn users that installing those extra components is not free and there is no form of license checking to prevent
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Why wait? Just remove anything Java from your systems.
Seriously, when the owner of a technology starts getting like this, there's no clawing back custom.
Just start planning to leave the entire platform now. Because the situation isn't going to get any better, even if you do win a lawsuit on reasonableness grounds.
It's time for a little uninstaller project (Score:2)
Ob (Score:2)
Don't forget to pay your $6,999,999 licensing fee, you cock-smoking teabaggers!
Here's the reason behind the wait (Score:2, Funny)
The Java [garbage collection] license [garbage collection] [garbage collection] [garbage collection] audit [garbage collection] [garbage collection] routines were
[garbage collection] written in [garbage collection] [garbage collection] [garbage collection] java and [garbage collection] [garbage collection] because of the code [garbage collection] [garbage collection][garbage collection] size the gar [garbage collection] [garbage collection] bage collector [garbage collection] [garbage collection] could [gar
-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures (Score:5, Interesting)
I know everyone loves to hate on Java and Oracle, but my understanding is that in order to access the licensed features, you have to deliberately add the command line arg "-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures". It doesn't seem like rocket science what this might mean...
Re:-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures (Score:5, Informative)
Java is a Bag o' Bugs (Score:2)
How about Oracle focus on its' well-deserved greedy reputation, and resolve to actually produce products that have been designed for reliability and verified by competent testers before unleashing bags of bugs on the Internet?
The whole POINT of Java has been: Make the platform open source, and license the developer half of the project: Developers pay for the tool, and right to run on the freely distributed platform.
The whole RESULT of Java has been: Customers have to frequently update "free" Java to "fix
Translation.... (Score:3)
Oracle begins aggressively trying to Kill Java.
Java is already starting the death phase, and Oracle just wants it to die already by trying to encourage companies to not use it.
Whoracle Strikes Again (Score:2)
How bad will anyone feel when they go belly up like SCO.
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The industry prefers a strongly typed language for certain mission-critical applications, but the choices are dwindling there. Dynamic languages are just a poor fit for certain applications.
JavaScript is not a viable alternative also because it has an awkward OOP model and/or syntax that forces one to over-use anonymous functions or lamdbas.
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I agree, the question is if this headache may cause Ada to grow stronger. But even though C# isn't as good and strict as Java it's likely the language that will benefit from this.
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But even though C# isn't as good and strict as Java .....
"Good" is subjective, but how is C# not as "strict" as Java? Is it because C# has a dynamic type? Honestly curious here,
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The real problem with JavaScript is that it has a single numerical type, and that type is a stupid choice. You can't do 64-bit integer arithmetic in JavaScript in a remotely sane way.
It seemed to make sense at the time, when Livescript was just a quick hack for simple dynamic web glue. But the fact that this gaping wound made it through multiple upgrade and standardization cycles has to be a major embarrassment for all concerned.
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Dynamic languages are just a poor fit for certain applications.
That's true. Different languages have different uses. There might be a few places where Java is the best choice - but not many.
I've seen far more projects (mostly database/web stuff) where a dynamic language like Javascript or Python would have been far better choices than Java. But Java programmers often don't know anything else (many can't even write a simple SQL query) so they try to use it on everything.
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Javas is not a proprietary language.
That will be decided when Oracle v. Google is appealed.
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And if you're thinking that the APIs are a critical part of the language and thus should be included in your sloppilly worded sentence, then you're still wrong: Java is licensed under the GPL, and Google's problem is entirely that they didn't release their implementation under the GPL (which they've changed now, and thus will co
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However, ARM still maintains control
And if you want to see what happens when they don't, look at what happened to MIPS. Every MIPS vendor implemented their own extensions and you have a choice between portable code and code that runs at a reasonable speed. In contrast, ARM binaries run on any ARM system. RISC-V still hasn't yet designated different parts of their NOP space for trapping and non-trapping NOPs, so extension is going to be difficult, and the RISC-V Foundation still doesn't have a process for introducing extensions for review a
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RISC-V still hasn't yet designated different parts of their NOP space for trapping and non-trapping NOPs, so extension is going to be difficult, and the RISC-V Foundation still doesn't have a process for introducing extensions for review and standardisation. This is why the ARM ecosystem is so valuable and the MIPS ecosystem is a wasteland.
I remember ARM's earlier work, which had the very same difficulties you describe for MIPS architectures. Every implementer had a separate memory protection/paging architecture, every one had a different interrupt routing architecture. What a grinding mess that was... They wised up *just in time* (IMHO), establishing core ("Cortex") functionality which is required for all implementers. That stabilized the ARM ecosystem enough to allow it to grow dramatically.
If the implementers of RISC-V are wise, they would
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The rats know the Oracle Ship is burning and are trying to milk every last drop from the Java cash cow before they scurry into rafts.
It's beyond me why anyone would use Oracle when Postgres is available.
Re:I really hate to defend ORACLE on this (Score:5, Interesting)
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A former client actually had this policy specifically related to Oracle products. [...] no Oracle database products at all
Was this interpreted broadly enough to cover MySQL? Or MariaDB, which is a fork of MySQL?
Re: CS curriculum (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with you! However, C/C++ isn't 'sexy' and isn't a buzzword thrown around to attract more students. Learning C/C++ is hard as a first language, though it makes for better programmers. Java looks easy but encourages bad design principals. I wish more CS schools would teach first principals like used to be taught 20-30 years ago.
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Learning C/C++ is hard as a first language, though it makes for better programmers.
Yah, sure. I don't know of many that actually believe this, and you're gonna have to back up that statement a little...
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Learning C/C++ is hard as a first language, though it makes for better programmers.
Yah, sure. I don't know of many that actually believe this, and you're gonna have to back up that statement a little...
The Perils of JavaSchools [joelonsoftware.com]
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It's a good article, but he does not make the argument that you say. He says that teaching C first filters out a lot of bad programmers, not makes good programmers. These are not quite the same thing.
If a school wants to make good programmers then they shouldn't teach C first as it is a horrifically bad language for learning. Joel makes the argument that it is good for testing ability. Python is actually a good first language for learning. Maybe C as a second language to learn about memory and pointers. Pro
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I agree with you! However, C/C++ isn't 'sexy' and isn't a buzzword thrown around to attract more students. Learning C/C++ is hard as a first language, though it makes for better programmers.
There is no language called "C/C++"! There is a language called C, and there is another called C++. They share some syntax (but not all), and one is occasionally (and incorrectly) considered to be a subset of the other. Not only is it not a subset, it isn't even a true that "a large majority of C programs also compile as C++ programs". They are very different languages, and using them proficiently requires a completely different mindset from the programmer.
This lady explains how C++ should be taught, and it
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Both C++ and Java are LOUSY first languages. C is all right, but not really great. Still, you can get quick results with C, so teach a month or two of C and then switch to something like a simple assembler (it'll have to be the assembler for a pseudo-machine rather than a real one, as the real machines have gotten too complex). I believe that some of the MUDs have suitable pseudo-machines, or if not that, perhaps the Perl6 pseudo-machine. MIX would have it's points, but with a MUD machine you can get fa
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Someone running Clojure or Scala code in a JVM with the premium features enabled without a license for said premium features would be liable.